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By that logic ANY Christian religion fits into that category. "Oh Southern Baptism comes directly from Peter, but they just called it something else until now." as everything has branched from the apostles teachings and writings, have they not?
Yes, that's true, but while tracing those roots back to the Apostles,
how many of those protestant religions roots will run into the Catholic
Church before they get to the Apostles?
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There are many contemporary authors and automatic writers who believe that the work they are putting out is of Divine inspiration. The author Neale Donald Walsch (The Conversations with God series) comes to mind. As do Jane Robertson (Seth books), Pat Rodegast (Emmanual works) and Lee Carroll (Kryon works). Thomas Moore. Marianne Williamson. Phillip Yancey. All believe that there is an element of Divine inspiration in what they do.
I would argue that a number of creative and/or talented people also feel that they are Divinely inspired. Athletes thank God all of the time. As do many musicians and actors.
I have been given a gift as a writer. I feel that comes from somewhere – that writing sort of comes through me and not from me. My writing is far better than the sum of who I am. How can that be if there isn't some kind of a Divine element to it?
Why am I saying all of this? Because the Bible may, indeed, be of Divine inspiration. But most artists, writers, musicians and others of talent will tell you that they are Divinely inspired, as well. Maybe in the end, it is all Divine. Just a thought.
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well, according to Catholic beliefs they certainly were.
St. Peter was the first Pope, and he was with Jesus.
There was no Christianity before Jesus' died and
rose again.
Interesting idea. but remember that the Catholics simply chose Peter as the first "Pope" because Christ said that Peter (ie: The Rock) was whom the future church would be built on. Simply stated, Christ was saying that by virtue of Peter teaching and passing the word along, that the future of Christianity would be built. I don't find anything that says Christ told Peter that he was to start the Roman Catholic Church, and that he would be the first Pope. Also, many parts of the Catholic theology were resisted by Christians due to it's inherent idolization of "saints" , and the practice of begging intersession from them with God. All these are leftovers from the paganistic religions that existed prior.
And yes, there was Christianity before the Catholic church. The word "Christian" was actually a term used to belittle Christians. It meant literally "little Christ". Everyone whom followed Christ was a "Christian".
The one who did the most work establishing the church after Christ was Paul. Paul established churches almost everywhere. If you read his letters in the Bible, you will see that everything the early Roman Catholic Church said could NOT be attributed to Paul, because Paul was most certainly in line with what Christ said, and all of his ideas.
So whereas I understand the confusion in your history, please don't equate the Catholic Church with all of Christianity.
After all, I don't equate Francis Galton with all of science.
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As with anything, documents were written for the culture, by the culture. Even a "Divinely Inspired" document is still written by a person. You should question everything, that's for sure.
Catholics may have you believe that they were the first Christian religion. However, Peter was not Catholic (didn't exist yet) and other churches existed. For instance, the Corinth Church existed, and I believe they worshiped angels at some point. All those different books in the New Testament that aren't people's names are generally letters to different churches. These churches were not ran by a Pope and Paul who used to find and kill Christians wrote most of the letters to these churches to sort of nudge them on the right path. Even the Gnostic order was around before the Catholic church and may possibly the oldest organized Christian religion.
One thing you can learn from history is that the Catholic Church will manipulate people and its own historical beliefs for its own good.
I don't necessarily believe the Catholic people as a whole feel manipulated by the church. The foundation of Catholic reglion is Peter with Christ, and the rock is the church, the Catholics BELIEVE the Catholic religion was founded then. This is the BELIEF. It's that simple, whether historical or not. It is a catholic belief. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Most believed the foundation, and I did not view these people thinking they were manipulated. It's called faith.
I'm no longer a Catholic, I went to Judaism classes. Judaism does not recognize the new testament. Does that mean it does not exist, no. Does that mean it is accurate, or inaccurate, no. It's just what judaism believes in. There quite a few things also, that are not based on historical fact in judaism, but totally faith based.
Beliefs do not always make historical sense in religion or have historic accuracy. Although, most religions believe their beliefs are correct or the right way.
I think that is what makes beliefs so strong in people in religions. Their faith is close to their heart, not history.
Different religious beliefs do not always make sense to others, while those in that belief think their belief is correct, or the right one.
It's all about faith, sometimes facts historical or other wise have nothing to do with faith. People live in the now, with acceptance of their faith.
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I don't necessarily believe the Catholic people as a whole feel manipulated by the church. The foundation of Catholic reglion is Peter with Christ, and the rock is the church, the Catholics BELIEVE the Catholic religion was founded then. This is the BELIEF.
The Catholic Church has a jaded history and I'm not sure anyone can discount that. To me, as an outsider it is apparent that the Catholic Church dictates not only the interpretations, but also the people's lives. The Catholic Church have demonized people in the past as heretics, just for simply questioning any doctrines. Simply not being a member of the Catholic Church, but still believing in Christ could still get you tortured and killed. Obviously that may not be the Catholic Church of today, but it once was.
I don't mean to offend or somehow say that the Catholic Church is evil, wrong, or anything else. Simply, my whole point to this was that the Catholic Church is not the whole of Christianity, and no Church or church should be representative of a person.
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The Catholic Church has a jaded history and I'm not sure anyone can discount that. To me, as an outsider it is apparent that the Catholic Church dictates not only the interpretations, but also the people's lives. The Catholic Church have demonized people in the past as heretics, just for simply questioning any doctrines. Simply not being a member of the Catholic Church, but still believing in Christ could still get you tortured and killed. Obviously that may not be the Catholic Church of today, but it once was.
I don't mean to offend or somehow say that the Catholic Church is evil, wrong, or anything else. Simply, my whole point to this was that the Catholic Church is not the whole of Christianity, and no Church or church should be representative of a person.
I’ve read most of these posts and I’ve kept my mouth shut, but I have to respond to this. I am Catholic, have been all my life, and the church does not dictate my life. I went to a Catholic college and we were taught, by a priest, of the doctrine that’s akin to ‘conscientious objector’. You weren’t forced to believe everything the church teaches and you can object if you’ve examined your heart and your conscience. For instance, I object to the fact that women can’t be priests and I object to the fact that homosexual people can’t marry. I have very valid reasons for both stances. Does that make me ex-communicated? No. It seems that many of the posts are misinterpreting today’s Catholic religion and its teachings. Its’ changed and evolved in the last twenty to thirty years.
Its about forgiveness and the love of God and seeing everyone, absolutely everyone, as a child of God. Everything else stems from that. Period. I've had my say, thanks.
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Its’ changed and evolved in the last twenty to thirty years.
Great, but as my post said, I was speaking to the history of the Catholic Church. Changing now doesn't change the past. Like I said, I'm not trying to condemn anything or anyone, but people wanted facts, so we talked facts. That's about it.
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I think that as an outsider to any body of faith, it is hard to have a concept of what goes on on the inside – or even the individual belief systems of the people who attend.
For instance, Jim and I attend a Methodist Church. Not regularly – we go because Tanner plays in a musical group once a month, and we go if they talk me into performing at the church – or if my flute student plays. The people in the church (with the exception of our very close friends) don't know what our belief system is. Anyone looking from the outside would assume that because we attend the church we must believe in the teachings of that church. We are both agnostic.
Faith is highly individual and highly personal. How one chooses to experience and express that faith is unique to the individual.
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Great, but as my post said, I was speaking to the history of the Catholic Church. Changing now doesn't change the past. Like I said, I'm not trying to condemn anything or anyone, but people wanted facts, so we talked facts. That's about it.
Yes, the Roman Catholic church does have a history of doing things that by today's standards would seem pretty evil, but so does the rest of humanity. Slavery, prejudice, and genocide have been around for a long time, and only recently (on a historical scale) has anyone seen fit to care about the plight of others. While they may have served their own means as much as they served mankind, the church has done an awful lot of good over the centuries as well. Missionaries didn't show up in villages to raid for slaves, unlike neighboring tribes.
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Yes, the Roman Catholic church does have a history of doing things that by today's standards would seem pretty evil, but so does the rest of humanity. Slavery, prejudice, and genocide have been around for a long time, and only recently (on a historical scale) has anyone seen fit to care about the plight of others. While they may have served their own means as much as they served mankind, the church has done an awful lot of good over the centuries as well. Missionaries didn't show up in villages to raid for slaves, unlike neighboring tribes.
But, they did have a heavy influence on the various cultures they interacted with. Even to the point of declaring their "heathen" practices as "of the devil". Many cultures were forever altered by the arrival of these missionaries, and sometimes not for the best. Just look at recent events in Kenya, Africa, and the witch hunts there. It is almost like Salem revisited. And the cultural artifacts that have been destroyed in the name of the church. I don't begrudge anyone believing the way they want, but when they impose their beliefs on others, almost like a conquering nation, that's when it sickens me.
The mantra, "If it is not of God, then it must be of the devil," comes to mind. And yes, I do know people who think this way. They would even say the internet is evil, but in true hypocritical fashion they use it anyway.
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But, they did have a heavy influence on the various cultures they interacted with. Even to the point of declaring their "heathen" practices as "of the devil". Many cultures were forever altered by the arrival of these missionaries, and sometimes not for the best. Just look at recent events in Kenya, Africa, and the witch hunts there. It is almost like Salem revisited. And the cultural artifacts that have been destroyed in the name of the church. I don't begrudge anyone believing the way they want, but when they impose their beliefs on others, almost like a conquering nation, that's when it sickens me.
The mantra, "If it is not of God, then it must be of the devil," comes to mind. And yes, I do know people who think this way. They would even say the internet is evil, but in true hypocritical fashion they use it anyway.
/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
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/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
The internet IS evil, that's why I'm here. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
Does this make Al Gore the devil? /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
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But, they did have a heavy influence on the various cultures they interacted with. Even to the point of declaring their "heathen" practices as "of the devil". Many cultures were forever altered by the arrival of these missionaries, and sometimes not for the best. Just look at recent events in Kenya, Africa, and the witch hunts there. It is almost like Salem revisited. And the cultural artifacts that have been destroyed in the name of the church. I don't begrudge anyone believing the way they want, but when they impose their beliefs on others, almost like a conquering nation, that's when it sickens me.
The mantra, "If it is not of God, then it must be of the devil," comes to mind. And yes, I do know people who think this way. They would even say the internet is evil, but in true hypocritical fashion they use it anyway.
Take a good look at the history of conquering nations. Often it involves killing the grown men, and taking the women and children for slaves. It still happens in some parts of the world (sub-Saharan Africa for one). Has the church ever done anything like that? If you view the actions of thousands of years ago through modern morals and standards, then yes, the church has done some pretty despicable things. But they have never committed genocide, nor enslaved entire peoples. Many, if not most, of the cultures they influenced were pretty brutal to begin with.
Would you view democracy any differently if you knew that the earliest democrats in ancient Greece massacred the ruling class who opposed them?
The validity of religious doctrine is at best debatable, but the one constant throughout history is that religions have only been as good or bad as the human beings that ran them. Is it really fair to hold them to standards of conduct that didn't exist in their day? In a time when you could be executed for publicly questioning the King, is it any wonder that heresy wasn't tolerated? I'm just glad that we now live in a society where overt repression is a thing of the past.
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Take a good look at the history of conquering nations. Often it involves killing the grown men, and taking the women and children for slaves. It still happens in some parts of the world (sub-Saharan Africa for one). Has the church ever done anything like that? If you view the actions of thousands of years ago through modern morals and standards, then yes, the church has done some pretty despicable things. But they have never committed genocide, nor enslaved entire peoples. Many, if not most, of the cultures they influenced were pretty brutal to begin with.
Never said church's had committed genocide, only that they tended to come in, much like a conquering nation, and imposed their beliefs on other cultures. Though now that you mention it, the crusades were a church sponsored conquest of the Holy land, as was the colonizing of America, though in the pilgrims case they were running from religious persecution. But like true European fashion that soon turned to the conquest of the Native American tribes, and the taking of their land. And it seems to me that some people justified those actions through divine providence.
In a sick way the Nazis were committing genocide for their beliefs. Just because their brand of Christianity was occult in nature doesn't change the fact that it was their beliefs. That fact alone goes to show how far a nation will go to complete their sick agenda.
Would you view democracy any differently if you knew that the earliest democrats in ancient Greece massacred the ruling class who opposed them?
Truth be known, I've never trusted government, especially big government. To me the bigger the worse off they are. And it doesn't surprise me that something would happen like that in ancient times. The democracy we have today is a lie. A lie put up by big business and the politicians to control the masses. The current economic crisis alone should show people what the government is about. Help the corporations while the little guys, you and I, get screwed.
The validity of religious doctrine is at best debatable, but the one constant throughout history is that religions have only been as good or bad as the human beings that ran them. Is it really fair to hold them to standards of conduct that didn't exist in their day? In a time when you could be executed for publicly questioning the King, is it any wonder that heresy wasn't tolerated? I'm just glad that we now live in a society where overt repression is a thing of the past.
Depends on where you live. For most of my life, until recently, I lived in the south, where abortion clinics are bombed in the name of religion, where having a different sexual orientation can get you killed because it's viewed as evil by some religions. I'm not so sure that we are living in a comletely civilized society right now. IMHO we have a long way to go on the road of spiritual enlightenment.
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Never said church's had committed genocide, only that they tended to come in, much like a conquering nation, and imposed their beliefs on other cultures. Though now that you mention it, the crusades were a church sponsored conquest of the Holy land, as was the colonizing of America, though in the pilgrims case they were running from religious persecution. But like true European fashion that soon turned to the conquest of the Native American tribes, and the taking of their land. And it seems to me that some people justified those actions through divine providence.
In a sick way the Nazis were committing genocide for their beliefs. Just because their brand of Christianity was occult in nature doesn't change the fact that it was their beliefs. That fact alone goes to show how far a nation will go to complete their sick agenda.
Truth be known, I've never trusted government, especially big government. To me the bigger the worse off they are. And it doesn't surprise me that something would happen like that in ancient times. The democracy we have today is a lie. A lie put up by big business and the politicians to control the masses. The current economic crisis alone should show people what the government is about. Help the corporations while the little guys, you and I, get screwed.
Depends on where you live. For most of my life, until recently, I lived in the south, where abortion clinics are bombed in the name of religion, where having a different sexual orientation can get you killed because it's viewed as evil by some religions. I'm not so sure that we are living in a comletely civilized society right now. IMHO we have a long way to go on the road of spiritual enlightenment.
Definitely agree with you there, although even the "deepest South" looks pretty tolerant and enlightened when compared to many parts of the world (Taliban, anyone?). The only point I'm really trying to make here is that you have to judge historical actions against the morals of the day, in order to really gauge their relative fairness. I don't think the Holy Roman Empire was worse than any of the other empires, I think we just expected better from them because they were "Holy".
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Jim and I were raised in the uber-liberal northwest. We've both lived here all of our lives. Can't speak for Jim, but speaking for myself, while I know that things are quite different not only in other parts of the world but in other parts of our very own country – taking that knowledge and filtering it through my experience I still sometimes have difficulty really processing what it must be like in a place where racism and sexism are that overt. Even here in the liberal northwest, there is a subtle thread of racism/sexism/lack of tolerance for differing beliefs and lifestyles. So to imagine what it must be like elsewhere – wow.
One of the things that does sort of cause me to react from time to time is when you hear one of our politicians refer to the US as a "christian nation". To do so leaves out a huge swath of people. And yet, when President Obama has made a point in speeches to mention other belief systems and other lifestyles, the pundits go crazy. I suppose that inclusiveness leaves no room for exclusion. And if we can't exclude others, than how can we judge our own self-importance?
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Jim and I were raised in the uber-liberal northwest. We've both lived here all of our lives. Can't speak for Jim, but speaking for myself, while I know that things are quite different not only in other parts of the world but in other parts of our very own country – taking that knowledge and filtering it through my experience I still sometimes have difficulty really processing what it must be like in a place where racism and sexism are that overt. Even here in the liberal northwest, there is a subtle thread of racism/sexism/lack of tolerance for differing beliefs and lifestyles. So to imagine what it must be like elsewhere – wow.
One of the things that does sort of cause me to react from time to time is when you hear one of our politicians refer to the US as a "christian nation". To do so leaves out a huge swath of people. And yet, when President Obama has made a point in speeches to mention other belief systems and other lifestyles, the pundits go crazy. I suppose that inclusiveness leaves no room for exclusion. And if we can't exclude others, than how can we judge our own self-importance?
Having lived in LA and Orange Counties in California all of my life, I appear to have been sheltered from a lot of the disgusting prejudices that go on in some parts of the country, some in the name of religion.
And when I hear about some of the things Chad has seen and experienced, it makes me angry, sickened, and sad.
It is hard for me to imagine how it would be in some other countries that are far worse off in this regard.
Gender-based sexuality is a disconnect in our society. Don't understand why many would oppose same-sex marriage, given the opposite fails at a fifty percent range. Have at it, and good luck. That this cannot happen is a result of referendums based on ancient texts of dubious authorship, those who would choose to deny basic human rights. Rights not given to us by an an all-knowing artificer, but through the real blood of young men who chose to give it.
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So…..anyway….
Ummm…. what are your thoughts on the break away from the Catholic church by Martin Luther? Good thing? Bad thing?
I wonder if some of the things we are debating here are some of the reasons that he broke away?
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Gender-based sexuality is a disconnect in our society. Don't understand why many would oppose same-sex marriage, given the opposite fails at a fifty percent range. Have at it, and good luck. That this cannot happen is a result of referendums based on ancient texts of dubious authorship, those who would choose to deny basic human rights. Rights not given to us by an an all-knowing artificer, but through the real blood of young men who chose to give it.
I dont understand why people care so much too. Of course I'm from New England where 5 of the 6 states have legalized Gay Marriage, so we're far more open in this part of the country. If someone thinks gay marriage is a sin, fine, dont marry someone of the same sex. Why it matters to them if someone else is committing this "sin" I dont know. It should be between god and the people involved. I'm glad I live in New England /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
So…..anyway….
Ummm…. what are your thoughts on the break away from the Catholic church by Martin Luther? Good thing? Bad thing?
I wonder if some of the things we are debating here are some of the reasons that he broke away?
Now I could be wrong, but didnt' Luther and his followers object to
the man made laws/rules that the Catholic Church was making?
If so then I would agree that it is the same. I think the debate here
is on man's interpretation to what is believed to be God's Law.
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