Want a 12-Month Digital Subscription to Paranormal Underground Magazine? Click here & save more than 15%!
Topic RSS
OfflineWhere is the historical evidence concerning this resurrection?
There were only two witnesses I believe. Anyone other than them, and the devout followers of Jesus of course, would believe that the body was simply taken by someone else. I would suppose that if Christianity is in-fact the truth, then it isn't meant for someone to look at the hard facts of history and believe. If that were the case, then nobody would need faith and a true love. God could just appear, communicate and make everything known to everyone. Then people would fear instead of love, which seems to be the point of creation of the universe under Christianity.
And remember there is a historical account of the world being attacked by aliens, and people fell into mass hysteria because of it. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> History is extremely bias according to the writers. It has always been that way. If Jesus did rise and it was known by many in the region, then Rome would have black balled the event from history and so would the Jews, whether Rome made them or not. Jesus was a threat to the Rome Empire, because of the unrest that was caused in the area, and Jesus' influence was rapidly spreading already. Remember Jesus claimed to be King of Jews and many were starting to follow him. Jesus was also known to be defiant. Jesus, quite simply, was a clear and present danger. Not only for then, but for some time after.
This is why Christians were murdered and tortured. This does not mean that Christianity was proven, but simply that Jesus was a real threat before and after death and would be more than enough reason for Rome to strike something from history as per usual Roman procedure.
In conclusion, the absence of historical accounts from Rome and Israel does not mean the absence of the event itself.
OfflineI'm fine with that, as long as I'm not forced to conform with your belief, under force of law. Ever.
ahhhh, but now you're making assumptions my friend /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
i thought you knew me better then that. when did i ever
say this was my belief?
unless you're using "your" to encompass people as a whole,
and weren't talking directly to me
Offlinewell, according to Catholic beliefs they certainly were.
St. Peter was the first Pope, and he was with Jesus.
There was no Christianity before Jesus' died and
rose again.
I think according to people's beliefs, or none, the catholic religion was first in christian reglion.
Peter, with jesus, and the religion started in what today is israel.
Catholic meaning universal. The church came later in the catholic religion.
The roman, in roman catholic is a western term.
I thought other christian religions branched off of catholic religions and formed their own, in christianity.
Historically, I thought the catholic religion was the oldest christian religion.
OfflineYou both are getting Christianity and the Catholic Church confused and assuming that they are same thing.
Also, dinosaurs do not disprove Genesis. I doubt that the generally illiterate masses of the Hebrew culture in the time period would easily grasp millions of years as opposed to days. More than likely the word "days" can be exchanged with the word "phases". Dinosaurs were not mentioned by name, but they also didn't exist when man was around. Only after man was "born" does Genesis talk about anything in detail. Anything before didn't matter did it? Why would man care about creatures that died long before? That defeats the whole point of the Genesis does it not?
Ironically, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are criticized for not being open minded towards atheists , however, atheists generally consider themselves "forward thinking" individuals and are closed minded to religions.
If dinosaurs (and everything that happened before the "Garden of Eden") don't disprove Genesis, they at least show that the Bible should not be interpreted word for word. Personally, I'm fine with religion, as long as it is open to interpretation. I don't care for absolutists of any stripe, be they Creationist zealots or militant Atheists, who have a lot more in common than they realize. If God did indeed create us, then he gave us brains for a reason. We should use them whenever possible.
Now that you mention it, Jews, Christians, and Muslims aren't exactly known for being open minded towards each other. As for the Atheists, wouldn't being open minded towards religion be the same as believing something that they just can't bring themselves to believe? I agree that Atheists shouldn't try to "shout down" religion any more than they should be condemned for being "unbelieving heathen infidels". It cuts both ways, which is why it would be nice if religion really was a personal thing that people kept to themselves. Ultimately, everybody has to believe what works for them, and last I checked, they call us individuals for a reason.
To be completely honest with you, I'm not completely sure what I believe, but I don't believe that the Bible, Q'uran, Torah, Book of Mormon, or any other religious document is the pure word of God unpolluted by human intervention. Aside from the differences between science and religious teachings, I just don't have enough faith in humankind to believe that those in charge wouldn't put their own spin on things. Maybe one day I'll have an epiphany and suddenly believe, but it certainly won't be just because everybody else does.
OfflineI think according to people's beliefs, or none, the catholic religion was first in christian reglion.
Peter, with jesus, and the religion started in what today is israel.
Catholic meaning universal. The church came later in the catholic religion.
The roman, in roman catholic is a western term.
I thought other christian religions branched off of catholic religions and formed their own, in christianity.
Historically, I thought the catholic religion was the oldest christian religion.
that's always been my understanding of it too.
catholics were first, starting with Peter.
protestants, who were protesting the catholic church
branched off from them. they were protesting the
"man made" laws of the church.
but i'm sure someone here will correct my assumption /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
If dinosaurs (and everything that happened before the "Garden of Eden") don't disprove Genesis, they at least show that the Bible should not be interpreted word for word. Personally, I'm fine with religion, as long as it is open to interpretation. I don't care for absolutists of any stripe, be they Creationist zealots or militant Atheists, who have a lot more in common than they realize. If God did indeed create us, then he gave us brains for a reason. We should use them whenever possible.
Now that you mention it, Jews, Christians, and Muslims aren't exactly known for being open minded towards each other. As for the Atheists, wouldn't being open minded towards religion be the same as believing something that they just can't bring themselves to believe? I agree that Atheists shouldn't try to "shout down" religion any more than they should be condemned for being "unbelieving heathen infidels". It cuts both ways, which is why it would be nice if religion really was a personal thing that people kept to themselves. Ultimately, everybody has to believe what works for them, and last I checked, they call us individuals for a reason.
To be completely honest with you, I'm not completely sure what I believe, but I don't believe that the Bible, Q'uran, Torah, Book of Mormon, or any other religious document is the pure word of God unpolluted by human intervention. Aside from the differences between science and religious teachings, I just don't have enough faith in humankind to believe that those in charge wouldn't put their own spin on things. Maybe one day I'll have an epiphany and suddenly believe, but it certainly won't be just because everybody else does.
It would be one heck of an epiphany for any of this . . . stuff to sway or enthrall me. Just my outlook.
ahhhh, but now you're making assumptions my friend
/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
i thought you knew me better then that. when did i ever
say this was my belief?
unless you're using "your" to encompass people as a whole,
and weren't talking directly to me
Pardon. Wasn't speaking to your belief, don't know it. My bad.
OfflineThere were only two witnesses I believe. Anyone other than them, and the devout followers of Jesus of course, would believe that the body was simply taken by someone else. I would suppose that if Christianity is in-fact the truth, then it isn't meant for someone to look at the hard facts of history and believe. If that were the case, then nobody would need faith and a true love. God could just appear, communicate and make everything known to everyone. Then people would fear instead of love, which seems to be the point of creation of the universe under Christianity.
And remember there is a historical account of the world being attacked by aliens, and people fell into mass hysteria because of it.
/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> History is extremely bias according to the writers. It has always been that way. If Jesus did rise and it was known by many in the region, then Rome would have black balled the event from history and so would the Jews, whether Rome made them or not. Jesus was a threat to the Rome Empire, because of the unrest that was caused in the area, and Jesus' influence was rapidly spreading already. Remember Jesus claimed to be King of Jews and many were starting to follow him. Jesus was also known to be defiant. Jesus, quite simply, was a clear and present danger. Not only for then, but for some time after.
This is why Christians were murdered and tortured. This does not mean that Christianity was proven, but simply that Jesus was a real threat before and after death and would be more than enough reason for Rome to strike something from history as per usual Roman procedure.
In conclusion, the absence of historical accounts from Rome and Israel does not mean the absence of the event itself.
You actually illustrate a very good point about history. Even in this day and age, unless something is captured on video, it is open to "spin-terpretation". Even video can be called into question unless multiple independent sources were taken (thanks to Hollywood). Case in point: Senator Larry Craig in that Minneapolis Airport restroom. The police officer says he was soliciting gay sex, while the senator claims that he was merely tapping his foot and a victim of circumstance. Two completely different accounts of the same event, from two people separated by a mere inch of hollow metal. That was only a year or two ago. You can only imagine how incomplete and inaccurate our accounts of what happened 2000 years ago are, especially when maybe one in a thousand was literate enough to even write their version down. That's one reason why it takes faith to believe, and faith as they say, varies by individual. We shouldn't be critical of each other over our varying degrees of faith. Unless we were there, how do we really know what happened? We either take it on faith, or we don't.
OfflineIf dinosaurs (and everything that happened before the "Garden of Eden") don't disprove Genesis, they at least show that the Bible should not be interpreted word for word. Personally, I'm fine with religion, as long as it is open to interpretation. I don't care for absolutists of any stripe, be they Creationist zealots or militant Atheists, who have a lot more in common than they realize. If God did indeed create us, then he gave us brains for a reason. We should use them whenever possible.
Now that you mention it, Jews, Christians, and Muslims aren't exactly known for being open minded towards each other. As for the Atheists, wouldn't being open minded towards religion be the same as believing something that they just can't bring themselves to believe? I agree that Atheists shouldn't try to "shout down" religion any more than they should be condemned for being "unbelieving heathen infidels". It cuts both ways, which is why it would be nice if religion really was a personal thing that people kept to themselves. Ultimately, everybody has to believe what works for them, and last I checked, they call us individuals for a reason.
To be completely honest with you, I'm not completely sure what I believe, but I don't believe that the Bible, Q'uran, Torah, Book of Mormon, or any other religious document is the pure word of God unpolluted by human intervention. Aside from the differences between science and religious teachings, I just don't have enough faith in humankind to believe that those in charge wouldn't put their own spin on things. Maybe one day I'll have an epiphany and suddenly believe, but it certainly won't be just because everybody else does.
I agree. I don't know what I believe. I look for more of the historical aspect. I'm half jewish, half welsh, the jewish half I view as heritage, not religion. I was raised catholic. Laugh riot isn't it.
I got in trouble for questioning the priest, did not follow why the questions already had answers. Who is god? God is made man. I went to catholic school.
My catholic religion stopped when I moved out of home. I looked into Judaism. 20's thing, explore my roots. I went to conversion classes, but never converted.
I married someone who just happened to be jewish, he is not religious, but had formal instruction thru his childhood.
My beliefs, I have no idea and am not involved in any formal religion, but have nothing against religion.
I have gotten this far, I THINK there may be something bigger than all of us. Evil and good dwell in the hearts of mankind. Choose your path, the type of person you want to be.
I remain open to see what others think, within reason. Any of the books, I view as stories, handed down by man.
OfflineI would love to be swayed, but none of this stuff does it. Yet when my wife arches her eyebrows, and trills the R in my name, I feel the transcendent, the urge to . . . do things I might not given the circumstance.
there's an R in Dawkins?
/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> j/k /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
OfflineIf dinosaurs (and everything that happened before the "Garden of Eden") don't disprove Genesis, they at least show that the Bible should not be interpreted word for word. Personally, I'm fine with religion, as long as it is open to interpretation. I don't care for absolutists of any stripe, be they Creationist zealots or militant Atheists, who have a lot more in common than they realize. If God did indeed create us, then he gave us brains for a reason. We should use them whenever possible.
As with anything, documents were written for the culture, by the culture. Even a "Divinely Inspired" document is still written by a person. You should question everything, that's for sure.
that's always been my understanding of it too.
catholics were first, starting with Peter.
protestants, who were protesting the catholic church
branched off from them. they were protesting the
"man made" laws of the church.
but i'm sure someone here will correct my assumption
/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
Catholics may have you believe that they were the first Christian religion. However, Peter was not Catholic (didn't exist yet) and other churches existed. For instance, the Corinth Church existed, and I believe they worshiped angels at some point. All those different books in the New Testament that aren't people's names are generally letters to different churches. These churches were not ran by a Pope and Paul who used to find and kill Christians wrote most of the letters to these churches to sort of nudge them on the right path. Even the Gnostic order was around before the Catholic church and may possibly the oldest organized Christian religion.
One thing you can learn from history is that the Catholic Church will manipulate people and its own historical beliefs for its own good.
You actually illustrate a very good point about history. Even in this day and age, unless something is captured on video, it is open to "spin-terpretation".
Yeah, imagine what the text books of the future may say about us. It depends whether they are reviewing Fox News or CNN at the time I guess.
============
I'm not really here to debate the existence or beliefs of any religion, but I would just like to defend the point that this shouldn't be about proving or disproving anything. This topic was made to ask questions about Christianity and even though it is hard not to fall into a debate over all kinds of things when dealing with religion, I've never seen it become productive. Nobody truly converts either side of the fence over an argument such as this and the debate usually ends up pushing people away instead of doing much else.
OfflineCatholics may have you believe that they were the first Christian religion. However, Peter was not Catholic (didn't exist yet) and other churches existed. For instance, the Corinth Church existed, and I believe they worshiped angels at some point. All those different books in the New Testament that aren't people's names are generally letters to different churches. These churches were not ran by a Pope and Paul who used to find and kill Christians wrote most of the letters to these churches to sort of nudge them on the right path. Even the Gnostic order was around before the Catholic church and may possibly the oldest organized Christian religion.
It's obvious that your idea of the Catholic Church and my idea (and other peoples) are different.
You are looking at when the name "catholic church" came into use. No christian religion could
have begun before Christ. Jesus told Peter "on this rock i will build my church". The Catholic
Religion is directly from Peter. They just didn't start calling it the Catholic Church at that point.
Just because it may have been called something else, it's still the exact same religion, they just
started calling it Catholic Church at a latter point. The Catholic Church was not a "break off" religion
from what Peter had started. It's the continuation, it was just given a new name. When i got married
my last name changed, but i was still the exact same person, just called something new.
Paul wrote his letters to convert the Corinthians. They had a church before that, but it was not christian.
We could argue this point forever. Your basing your belief on the actual name its self and
i'm going by the start of Peter's teachings. So, on this I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
OfflineIt's obvious that your idea of the Catholic Church and my idea (and other peoples) are different.
You are looking at when the name "catholic church" came into use. No christian religion could
have begun before Christ. Jesus told Peter "on this rock i will build my church". The Catholic
Religion is directly from Peter. They just didn't start calling it the Catholic Church at that point.
Just because it may have been called something else, it's still the exact same religion, they just
started calling it Catholic Church at a latter point. The Catholic Church was not a "break off" religion
from what Peter had started. It's the continuation, it was just given a new name. When i got married
my last name changed, but i was still the exact same person, just called something new.
Paul wrote his letters to convert the Corinthians. They had a church before that, but it was not christian.
We could argue this point forever. Your basing your belief on the actual name its self and
i'm going by the start of Peter's teachings. So, on this I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I am not talking about the "catholic churches", but of the Catholic Church. Peter may have been the first apostle authority in the catholic church, but certainly there is no proof that he started the Catholic Church. You could easily make the arguement that Gnostics, in particular Setharian Gnostics were the first major Christian church.
I don't remember Peter ever appointing Bishops, living in the Vatican or even claiming to be the ultimate authority over anyone.
The Catholic
Religion is directly from Peter. They just didn't start calling it the Catholic Church at that point.
By that logic ANY Christian religion fits into that category. "Oh Southern Baptism comes directly from Peter, but they just called it something else until now." as everything has branched from the apostles teachings and writings, have they not?
Most Users Ever Online: 151
Currently Online: nypdretired
7 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
norcalmonkey: 24961
HeidiAnn67: 15116
wrightghost: 8521
duckie7694: 5868
movieman1500: 3314
milomilford: 2589
pooperdooper: 2049
sympathyforthedevil: 1912
BornAware: 1741
ediaz65: 1447
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 2940
Moderators: 3
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 14
Forums: 47
Topics: 1885
Posts: 104918
Newest Members: Johnsrudcraig@yahoo.com, Enverrera
Moderators: NoWhammies (3983), almosthunted (1138), RyanNREMTP (7427)
Administrators: admin (0), MysticalKnight (5526), sithy (1330)