Once again, I can cite chapters and verse from the Quran and the Bible that are not peaceful nor just. The stoning to death of disobediant children, or wandering wives is abhorrent to those moderates who don't understand the literalists who agree that these penalties are warrented. This misunderstanding leads to the disconnect.

From the New Testament? I don't think so. I'm not so sure about, however, both documents were written into the culture of the time. Obviously, man isn't perfect, even when trying to decide whether something is actually from the divine to scribe. Regardless, this is beating around the actual situation. The religious text does not equal the religious person.

There are those that believe, in a large majority that the text they choose to believe, and base their lives upon, is the literal word of their creator, and they wish further to legislate these words through law upon all of us, without question. I, and others say no. If you don't understand why, I do not see a way to make you understand my position.

I understand your position, and if you are speaking about the US, then that is changing with the sway of power away from the core evangelical Republicans. I should also point to the democratic process. You and I likely would vote against specifically theocratic based laws. You point I guess is that religion is being forced on you through Legislature? I'm not talking about unenforced "blue laws" from states either. I've also never heard of adultery (in your supposed situation) being against the law, with the exception of the UCMJ for the military. I'm sure there are some on the books somewhere, but I've never heard of them, probably because they are never enforced by anyone.

Actually there are places where adultery is (or up until recently was) illegal.

Including California (it's been changed in Cali), interestingly though the Cali statute

only read that it was illegal for a Married WOMAN to have sex with anyone other

then her husband. Guess men were free to do as they pleased /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

I'm not talking about unenforced "blue laws" from states either.

/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Blue laws in my mind aren't really legit. Blue laws are typically around because either because state legislature is unaware of them or that they are unimportant to clean out because of other business and aren't enforced by anyone.

granted this was 6 years ago, but the fact that even as recently as 6 years ago people were being "legally punished" for adultery is ridiculous. i'm sure that the reason these laws are even on the books to start with are for religious reasons.

Yes and the ACLU brought that case to the federal circuit courts. I believe it is now branded as "Unconstitutional" rendering the verdict and the crime null. This was around the same time as the trial, but I'm sure some Googling around will uncover the rest of the story.

No problem! Just shows that times are changing. I know I certainly don't want the government to set my principles for me either!

It's about time too, although being from New England I am

use to living in an area that is more open minded and the

government doesn't try to dictate morals to people as much

as happens in other parts of the country /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />

I grew up in a Baptist church. I don't attend regular services anymore.

Do I believe in God? Most definitely.

Do i think God sits around waiting to strike us down for our waywardness? No.

Do I think there are a lot of people in this world who could use a good strike down and do I sometimes question the plan? Yes.

Do I have to look any further than the open sky, mountains, the miracle that allows one to just clasp their fist, or the feeling certain things give me in the pit of my stomach to know there is a creator? No.

To me the core value of Christianity is one the most simplistic things there is to comprehend. And IMO, it's over analyzed so much that we forget the basic principle. 'Love thyself and thy neighbor.'

Woooah. What a concept. Two things that are extremely hard to do at times. And what do the majority of us do when we repeatedly encounter resistance? We give up, shoot holes in everything to try and justify things for OUR personal gain and comfort.

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't see a whole lot of loving thy neighbor going on at the moment. So when you say Christianity is losing ground, I believe you.

I'm not a bible banger and by no means a model Christian. When it all boils down, we're here for a reason. I'm not 100% sure of my reason and have no idea what yours may be, but i can assure you everyday is a gift.

Once again, I can cite chapters and verse from the Quran and the Bible that are not peaceful nor just. The stoning to death of disobediant children, or wandering wives is abhorrent to those moderates who don't understand the literalists who agree that these penalties are warrented (warranted?). This misunderstanding leads to the disconnect.

There are those that believe, in a large majority that the text they choose to believe, and base their lives upon, is the literal word of their creator, and they wish further to legislate these words through law upon all of us, without question. I, and others say no. If you don't understand why, I do not see a way to make you understand my position.

So what you are saying I think, is that you should be able to make me follow your laws, but not vice versa? According to most everything you have stated, I should not be able to make you follow "my" laws. My religious laws. Such as not killing, and not stealing? Such as not trying to take your neighbors wife?

Well, maybe it's just me, but even if you discount the religious aspect of the above laws, ummmmm…don't they seem pretty reasonable in the first place?

And yes, there are chapters from both of the above books that talk about things that are a little distasteful. However, keep in mind that those books were written in a time that such things seemed reasonable and just. Warfare was the norm, because life had much less value. people died at very young ages, from any number of things. So consequently, there was not as much of a push for the things you and I consider commonplace.

So those of us that take the words literally also have brains. We also realize that things are different now than what they were thousands of years ago.

The people that I believe you MAY be referring to are called "zealots". They are not the mainstream. They are not us.

So please stop attempting to tell us that we are.

I think we have to realize that we all approach the world, God, beliefs from our own unique history and viewpoint. Most of us are unable to separate ourselves from that to take a step back and just look at things.

I've never understood arguments about God. Why does it matter to anyone else what another believes? Yeah – I get the argument about legislating morality, but that always has been and always will be done. People naturally seek out power over others because they don't feel any sense of individual empowerment. Yep. It leads to bad things sometimes.

But every entity pushes its agenda – not just the church. Those in power are able to get those agendas into legislation. And that has nothing to do with the church. Does the fact that cigarettes (which have been proven to be harmful to your health) are legal, but pot isn't have anything to do with the church? No – it has to do with the fact that our tobacco corporations have the ear of government, and thus are able to stay powerful. Look at how all-powerful our pharmaceutical industry is? They are allowed to push all sorts of dangerous $hit through (sorry for swearing in a thread about Christianity) and sell it to the American public through doctors (who are in a trusted position of authority with most people) in spite of the fact that some of it is barely safe. Take a look on studies sometime about the dangers of statins, for instance. Or look at the number of studies that link childhood vaccines (and particularly thimerisol – which is a stabilizer containing mercury used in a number of vaccines including the DTP) to autism and other vaccine reactions. It isn't just religious institutions. Everyone wants to stay in power and push their own agendas (or faulty products) on the people. Our government is just corrupt enough to allow it to happen.

How's that for ranty??

Very good points. I think that you are correct in that pretty much everyone tries to push their own agenda. I mean, what would be the point of having an agenda if you didn't try and get others to follow it?

Ranty……I'm going to have to adopt that word!

I have always been curious and wonder what peoples thoughts are on Jesus's blood line after his death.

The Da Vinci code just makes me think someone would be related to him today, even though the book was fiction.

He lived, recording keeping after his death I have no idea what there is.

Thoughts, facts, ideas? Curious

My personal thoughts on this are that there was no blood line. After all, if there were, would it benefit anyone to be silent about it? Now, I'm not talking about the hypothetical relation, but others. You would think that they would do everything that they could to make it known that Jesus had children. The reasons for this could be to attempt discrediting him, or to attempt to start new facets of religion. Imagine the coup that a church would have by claiming that they actually knew who the relatives of Christ were and that the person agreed with them…