You must have skipped the part where I said I hear what you are saying, I understand what you are saying and that I don't disagree with you.

Go back and read it. It's there. I've repeatedly said that I understand what you are saying. You are so busy arguing a point that you fail to see mine.

Yes. Faith has caused man to do horrible things. In some cases. Faith has also caused man to do wonderful things. In some cases. That you do wonderful things and have a keen sense of morality in the absence of faith we all clearly see and understand. You've told us. We get it. I would do the right thing – and have done the right thing – both in the absence of faith and in the presence of it. You are arguing extremes.

By the way – I'm pretty sure I've never interpreted any text to say condoms are an abomination. I've rather enjoyed their protective properties over the years. It's how I managed to only have one child.

This is what I am saying if you are prepared to listen. My faith is a personal choice that makes ME feel better. It has nothing to do with anyone else or the rest of the world. It's personal. Period. Doesn't mean I am going to bomb a city in God's name. Doesn't mean I am any better or moral than you or anyone else. Merely means that I have found (for now) something that sustains me. I'd be willing to bet that there are millions of people of a faith who are exactly like me. They are experiencing their own personal faith, which has very little to do with the next guy. Some extremists – and there are many, you are correct – will push their morals on others; however, it is a pretty broad brush to use when you assume that anyone of faith will. I frankly don't give a rat's a$$ whether you ever find a moment in which you connect with the universe on a larger level. You've made it abundantly clear that you look down on those who do and assume that those who do are a suitcase nuke and a burka away from your annihilation.

So once again. I hear what you are saying. You are not incorrect. There's some crazy $hit done in the name of faith. That is PEOPLE not faith. People can be evil, crazy muthafu*kas. Faithless people can be just as crazy and evil as people of faith. Perhaps it is people you should rail against instead of faith. But not all people – just some. The mean ones. Only way to avoid them is to become a hermit in a mountain cave.

I would suggest that what will happen on a world scale will happen whether you are pissed off and fighting it or not. No. That's not complacency. We all use the tools we have available to "fight" the battles that we find important. I'm no different than you in that way. Your anger can no more prevent a suitcase nuke in a major city than my pen can.

People here see exactly what you are saying. I am certain of it. I think that the arguments you receive come from the fact that you seem to assume that anyone of faith has an evil agenda. And you want to push your lack of faith on us. Maybe you won't use a bomb to do it, but I've seen you use weapons like condescension, obfuscation, intellectual snobbery and other such bullyish tactics. To some people, those tools you use to attack with are probably a devastating "bomb" that you set off in their lives.

One more time. I get it. I don't disagree. I just don't think that faith is the problem. I think that people using faith to justify any and all actions are the problem. But then, I also think that people who use an argument of intellectual superiority in order to try and put down what is deeply important and personal to others could be a problem, as well. People can be jerks. All of us. We can just try to do better as individuals.

Edited to add: After posting the above, I realized something. I get, Dawkins, that what happened on 9/11 changed forever the way that you look at the world. As it did for most of us. Some turned to God. Some (like me) found other ways of comfort. You turned to Richard Dawkins. I understand. This is how you deal with the fear that lingers after that event. Whether you deny it or not now, I believe that you are acting out of fear and speaking out of fear – which is very understandable. Being a blink away from annihilation is a powerfully scary thing if you allow it to work its way into your life and control you. But you were a blink away from annihilation before 9/11 and you will be always. That is the fragility of our species and life on this planet. And that, my friend, has nothing to do with faith, religion, God, or anything else. All it has to do with is being what we are – a fragile species in a big, huge universe. We all choose to deal with that knowledge in our own way that works for us. For me, I choose to pursue passion, joy and love and ignore the fear because being afraid limits who I am as a human being.

At this point, I feel we're going around in circles. I think I am probably done with this discussion – although you are certainly welcome to continue it and I will read your responses. I apologize if anything in this response seems to lack compassion. I have compassion for how you must feel. In the end, that compassion only means something to me, I'd imagine. You will do as you do.

It is very clear you do not understand me. It's cool because many do not. Peace out Whammies, my fault in that I have not advanced my argument here.

OK folks…quite honestly, it's rather apparent that this has become a thread that doesn't really ask or answer questions. My intention was that there could be back and forth questions about the Christian worldview. Instead, it has seemingly become a platform for certain people to blast their personal opinions on the religion and religion in general, as well as to trumpet their personal achievements in a public place.

So here it is. STOP. If you have no actual questions, and no actual desire to learn anything, STOP. No one is under any delusions regarding your agenda. So just stay away please. That simple. There are many websites devoted to your point of view. You could even start a thread about YOUR viewpoint. My suggestion is that you do so.

Now if we can PLEASE get this thread back onto it's original tack, I would be appreciative.

Are you taking your ball and going home? Holding your breath and turning purple? Advance your argument, with evidence and proceed coherently. Without tautology and circular argument. The metaphysics you hawk trespass overtly into the science you ignore. Boo!

Dawkins, you seem to be insinuating that Gryph was throwing a tantrum in his post. Not sure how you'd come to that conclusion. His post was well written and right on target.

Evidence? Haven't we already been over this … again and again and again?

Again and again I ask for evidence.

I think maybe a good idea, Dawkins, would be to start a thread yourself asking for evidence – so as not to thread jack gryp's initial intention. Can we try that?

Thanks.

[

Seems an elegant reply.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd, the beat goes on.

For one final time, I will address the "evidence". After this, regardless of what is said, I will keep this on topic.

Dawkins. Sir. My best piece of evidence is simply this; 1st there was nothing. Then the "Big Bang" happened, and there was everything. So. If there was nothing, and then there was something, what started the "Big Bang"?

The Big Bang can't be denied. It happened. Things in the cosmos are moving away from a central point, and gaining speed as they do so. So what started it? What was available TO start it, if there was nothing?

There are other things, such as Behe's Irreducible Complexity that show that many of the evolutionary ideas are simply preposterous.

As I have already stated the evidence regarding the historicity of the Bible, I will not rehash it.

Now, I can't understand why you hold my views, and perhaps myself with such contempt. I can make assumptions about your psychological makeup I suppose, but that would get us nowhere. I could make further assumptions regarding how you were raised and by whom. Again, rather pointless. So since it is quite evident that neither of us truly knows the other, let's say that we agree to disagree. What do you say? As I am not the only person experiencing your rather particular brand of vitriol, I can make a guess that you perhaps like to debate. So I would like to include for you a link. When you go to this link, it gives you access to a forum to debate religion. You may want to be prepared before going, just because many of them are well prepared for all of your arguments. SO good luck!

First read "On the Origin of Species" by Darwin. Then, Dawkins "The Greatest Show on Earth." I do not know your understanding of science, the scientific method, how one might examine the natural world. I once considered entering the seminary in the Catholic church, so I've read the bible, over and over. A

literature major in college, I was moved to examine the same text. It did not impress. Read the texts I've offered and we might discuss; do it not and I may know your world-view.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)

In the beginning(Time)

God(Mind/Intelligence)

Created(Energy/Power)

The heaven and earth(Space & Matter)

In the beginning, if there was "nothing," and there was, then that means that all of this complex universe had to come from somewhere. The so-called "Big Bang" had to be caused by "Someone," not by "something." The two laws of Thermo-Dynamics tells us this. One law says that "dead matter" has no creative power/ability, therefore dead matter never created anything, because you cannot get anything "living" from something dead. The plant, animal and even human kingdom tells us this, and that is, "Life produces life." Dead matter cannot produce anything, because it is dead.

The other law of Thermo-Dynamics states that everything in the Universe is "winding down," everything is "aging," getting older, just like humans, animals and plants. Everything ages and dies! Fact! Therefore, that strongly implies/demands that everything had a beginning.

Two main things, mind, and matter, we know they exist. We know that matter is dead, yet it ages/deteriorates, and because it is dead, it has no creative power. Therefore, it took a "Magnificent Mind/Intelligence" to bring all of this grand universe into existence. If you lay a piece of paper(dead matter) on a table, how many years will it take for it to form a paper airplane? It never will, because dead matter cannot create anything, it has no creative power. But, if a human being(which has intelligence, a mind) walks up and folds that paper in just the right fashion, then and only then will you have a paper airplane. Not because the dead paper "evolved" into a paper airplane, but because a "mind" formed it!

The one fact that atheists refuse to accept about GOD is that He is "timeless/ageless," no beginning! He has always been! Our minds cannot grasp that, yet, we are nothing in this universe compared to everything else. This is where "Faith" comes in, because there simply comes a time when you have to accept the fact that all of this wonderful universe just did not come into existence by some giant firecracker in the COSMOS. You cannot get a Webster's Dictionary by having an explosing in a printshop, because you cannot get "order out of chaos," totally impossible. This universe was formed by a MIND(God), and He used his "Creative" power to bring all of this "order," and all of this "complexity" into existence, and to believe otherwise has you left with not one leg to stand on argument-wise, because you have no argument. You cannnot get something from nothing without a MIND, and INTELLIGENCE!

Therefore, "In the beginning(Time)….God(Mind/Intelligence)….created(Energy/Power)….the heaven and the earth(Space and Matter). You cannot have this complex universe without the creative Mind, and creative force of an "Intelligence" behind it, and to believe any other way is simply ludicrous!

~ MidnightPoet

Offer the evidence for your thesis. For review.