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Proving God
December 30, 2009
2:44 am PDT
BornAware
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Implying that a whole group of people should be non-existent, whether by natural means or unnatural means, seems a bit hilteresque to me. Maybe that's not the way that Gryph was saying it, but that's how it was taken.

I would also fight for the right to express and/or explain my personal belief system, but I would also expect others to have an objection and/or differing opinion. That's the beauty of different ways of life. Just as I can look at another's belief system and shudder, they are free to do the same to me. And just as Gryph was expressing his opinions, PP was doing the same.

Debate is good, it makes us examine ourselves and what and why we are who and what we are. Please, keep the debate coming!!

Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try.



John Lennon





That which is unchallenged and exercised as habit rapidly becomes ritual.

When this occurs, dissent becomes an object of surprise, if not resentment.



B. Carmon Hardy
December 30, 2009
9:48 pm PDT
Perpetual Persuit
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I'm a little late to this game and I probably should leave sleeping dogs and all that but I see nothing "Hitleresque" about this statement. I see no harm in posters explaining their personal belief systems, in fact I would fight for their right to do so. That's what makes this country great. IMHO

Can't we leave political correctness in its own place and have a civil conversation without accusing each other? Censorship is a duel edged sword and I'm not so sure I want to exercise it either way. I think you are reading way too much into his personal opinions. IMHO

No one is trying to censor anyone here friend. I'm just saying that anyone who thinks that a persons lack of belief in god makes their life not worth living and will be bred out of existence, sounds like a person who thinks they know a final solution. Talk about a lack of tolerance. Believe what you want, but don't think ignorance and hate will not illicit a response.

...And The Band Played On...
December 31, 2009
12:35 am PDT
HeidiAnn67
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A friend wrote this and asked me to post it…

Proof Of God?

Quantum Physics Encounters A Conscious Creator

When we search for meaning in our lives we ask ourselves a few basic questions. Why I am I here? How does my life make sense? What is my purpose in life? What happens when I die? It is inevitable that when we try to answer such questions that the concept of God becomes the central issue of how we define meaning in our lives. More importantly is our contextual relationship with a creator. These questions usually remain in the domain of philosophy and theology while leaving science out of the discussion. That has always been the case until now. The theories and experiments of quantum mechanics have led to an encounter with a conscious creator.

What is Quantum Mechanics or Quantum Physics? Quantum theory was developed in the early 20th century to explain the mechanics or mechanism governing the behavior of the atom. They found that the energy state of an atom would change by a discrete quantity called a quantum, and thus you have quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics or quantum physics is responsible for generating 1/3 of our economy. The theories in quantum mechanics were responsible for the invention of the laser, the transistor and MRI technology. These technologies are found in our TV's, computers, cell phones, microwaves, fiber optics and most electronics. It is the foundation of all physical sciences.

What is it about quantum mechanics that physicists find so strange? Simply this: Quantum Mechanics states that our reality cannot exist independent of a conscious observer. In other words if we were not here to observe everything that we see including the stars, planets and the universe, the universe could not exist. It states that how we choose to observe our reality can have an effect on it.

What is Quantum Entanglement? Quantum Entanglement tells us that all the atoms or particles in the universe are in communication with each other. That they can pass information back and forth faster than the speed of light. Einstein called this "spooky action at a distance". It shows us that by our very observation of an atom or particle that we can affect a property of that particle. For example if we observe an atom and change the property of that atom, that same atom will transmit that information to another twin state atom anywhere in the universe instantaneously to give the other twin state atom the information that it had been observed. The twin state atom who just received the information that it had been observed will then change its own properties to match the twin state atom who sent the information.

What is Quantum Entanglement telling us? It tells us that by our observation of things local to us that we can have an affect on things non local to us in the wider universe. The rest of the universe becomes entangled in our local observation. That is how by our local observations we can hold to together and sustain the reality or existence of the universe. We will get to the creation of our reality and universe at a later point.

We will be using the term conscious observer to illustrate quantum mechanics so it is best to pause here and define what we mean by the conscious observer. For our purposes when we describe a conscious observer we refer to an intelligent living being that possesses reason, self awareness and the ability to abstract and has free will of choice.

What can quantum mechanics tell us about our reality?

First of all we will consider the implications of the famous double slit experiment. This is where a photon is fired into a double slit screen with a photographic plate on the other side to measure where the photon hits. Scientists for a long time argued whether light was a wave or a particle. They found out that light was both a particle and a wave and that only when we(a conscious observer) tries to measure or observe light that it becomes a particle. Back to the double slit experiment. When the photon is fired at the screen with one slit closed the particle knows that one slit is closed and will go through the one open slit. If both slits are open when we fire our photon, the photon will go through both slits at the same time. In other words the same particle will be in 2 locations at the same time. How do we know this? We know this by measuring the interference pattern of the collapsing wave function on the photographic plate.

For the purpose of making this more understandable lets illustrate this on a larger hypothetical scenario. Say a pitcher is throwing a baseball to a catcher. The baseball represents the particle. If everyone in the stadium is not observing the baseball. It would look like the pitcher was throwing an invisible baseball. Because the baseball would not yet exist as an object. It would still be in a state of potential existing as a wave form. This is known as a state of superposition. Once the observers in the stadium decided to look at the pitcher and the baseball at any location in between the pitchers hand and the catchers mit, you could then see the baseball as an object and know its location.

So what do we have so far? Quantum mechanics tells us that 1 object can exist in 2 locations at the same time and that the way matter acts and forms is dependent on the choice of a conscious observer.

Now this is where things really get strange. Back to our baseball analogy. We make the choice to measure the baseball just before it enters the catchers mit. We also decide that we want to measure a curve ball instead of a straight fast ball.(the pitcher always starts off throwing a straight fast ball) But because of this choice we will observe a curve ball just before it enters the catchers mit. So not only is the baseball influenced by where we choose to observe it, it is also influenced by HOW we choose to observe it. What does this mean? Hold your seats. It means that by choosing to measure a curve ball after the pitcher has already released his fast ball straight pitch and the fact that we do observe the curve ball means that we have altered the history of the pitch from the present. What we have done is changed the past by how we have chose to observe the baseball in the present.

There are many other strange effects of quantum mechanics but for the sake of keeping this relatively short, we will conclude with what we have learned so far. Which is:

-That our reality(matter and the atoms that make up matter) is influenced by an observing consciousness.

-That the same object can be in 2 places at the same time

-That we can influence the past from the present.

In other words all of the atoms that make up the matter in the universe, the planets, stars, our desks, our chairs, our houses and ourselves all exist as potential wave forms. Atoms and matter exist as both particle and waves. They exist in their wave form as an invisible potential. For atoms to form into the solid objects that we see all around us they need to change from their invisible wave form potential state into solid particles. When this happens it is called the collapse of the wave function. What quantum mechanics has demonstrated through experiments is that the that the collapse of the wave function(atoms becoming solid matter) cannot happen unless their is conscious observer there to observe the wave form and affect its change into solid particle. What does this really say about the universe we live in? It means that our physical reality cannot and does not exist prior to being observed by a conscious entity. Prior to the being observed by a conscious observer our universe can only exist as a potential wave form.

Can the wave function collapse on its own with out a conscious observer? The simple answer is no. They tried to have a computer perform the observation process and the wave function would not collapse independent of a conscious observer. But that is a tricky question because the computer could be considered to be in quantum entanglement with the conscious observer.

What does Bell's Theorem tell us? John Stewart Bell's theorem and the resulting subsequent experiments have been called the most profound discovery in Physics in the last half of the 20th century. His theory states that everything in the universe is connected. He proved Einstein's spooky action at a distance statement between objects. Bell states that once two objects come into contact with each other they will continue to pass information and influence each other. In other words events that happen in far away galaxies can influence events that happen in your own home. This means that every atom in the universe can be in communication with every other atom.

How do the Bell experiments show us that atoms can communicate with each other and pass the information that they have been observed? The twin photon experiment is a good example. Photons and particles have a property called the angle of polarity. In this experiment two twin photons were created that did not have an angle of polarity property. They were fired in the opposite direction to each other. Twin photon A went in one direction while twin photon B went in the opposite direction on a straight line. Picture two railroad cars that are hitched together on a railroad line being unhitched and then they both sped away from each other in the opposite direction. Twin photon A was observed 5 miles down the railway line by a conscious observer. That observation created a new angle of polarity for twin photon A which it did not have before the observation. At the exact moment that twin photon A was observed, twin photon B(10 miles away from twin photon A) changed its property from no angle of polarity to match the exact angle of polarity of twin photon A.

What does this experiment mean? It means that twin photon A knew that it was being observed and that it then instantaneously passed on the information to twin photon B. So the conscious observation of one photon affected and created a change in the other photon that was 10 miles away.

Where is all this leading? Science has proved that the universe came into being from a big bang. The big bang originated from a very dense super energy particle about the size of a quark. We have learned from quantum physics that a particle exists only as a wave form potential until it is observed by a conscious observer. Only then will the potential wave form turn(collapse of the wave function) into a particle with an exact location. So there had to be an observing consciousness there at the time of the big bang to bring the big bang particle into existence. Since we were not there at the time of the big bang and there was no life because the universe had yet to be created, there had to be what I would call an original observing consciousness or first observer who brought the universe into being.

Could one choose to call this first observer the creator or God? I think that the evidence points to a creator that one could choose to call God.

In correspondence with the quantum physics professor and co-author of the book "The Quantum Enigma" Bruce Rosenblum, he stated that Quantum Mechanics points to an encounter with Consciousness.

What does a conscious universe mean? A participatory universe? I would like to think that we participate on moment by moment basis in creating our reality and that it is implicit in that role that we participate and interact with the first observer or the consciousness that created the universe. One could say that through our free will of choice we are linked in an intimate way with the creator in ways that we are only beginning to understand.

In a play on words from the quote of Alexander Pope:

Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in the night:

God said, Let Consciousness Be! and all was light

December 31, 2009
12:50 am PDT
MissingK8
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DAWKINS!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!! /huh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Laugh' />

"We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams." - Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder)




"God is a kid with an ant farm." Constantine
December 31, 2009
1:05 am PDT
Guest
35698

DAWKINS!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!! /huh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Laugh' />

Quantum Mechanics is ill-understood by the general public, and thus can be used by people to justify all sorts of nonsense, give it "scientific" crediblity where there is none to be found. Michael Shermer calls this quantum flapdoodle, a term I can't improve upon.

Victor Stenger in "Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos, and the Search for Cosmic Consciousness" does a much better job exposing this stuff than I ever could.

December 31, 2009
1:41 am PDT
NoWhammies
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One of the extrapolations of quantum mechanics is a spiritual one. The other is purely mathematical/mechanical.

Richard Feynman is attributed with saying, "I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics." He's not far from wrong. It is insanely complex, and so can easily be misinterpreted when you look at it from a broad perspective.

That being said, I don't necessarily discount that quantum mechanics may, indeed, lead to proof of a creator. Or it may not. That's what's so cool. We just don't know.

December 31, 2009
2:30 am PDT
Guest
35730

One of the extrapolations of quantum mechanics is a spiritual one. The other is purely mathematical/mechanical.

Richard Feynman is attributed with saying, "I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics." He's not far from wrong. It is insanely complex, and so can easily be misinterpreted when you look at it from a broad perspective.

That being said, I don't necessarily discount that quantum mechanics may, indeed, lead to proof of a creator. Or it may not. That's what's so cool. We just don't know.

"But, as we have seen, movement does not require a mover, and modern quantum mechanics has shown it is not required. And even if they did, why would the Prime Mover need to be a supernatural anthropomophic deity such as the Judeo-Christian God? Why could it not just as well be the material universe itself?" Victor Stenger.

Whammies, surely you know this is much closer to Feynman than "Goddidit."

December 31, 2009
2:50 am PDT
NoWhammies
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"But, as we have seen, movement does not require a mover, and modern quantum mechanics has shown it is not required. And even if they did, why would the Prime Mover need to be a supernatural anthropomophic deity such as the Judeo-Christian God? Why could it not just as well be the material universe itself?" Victor Stenger.

Whammies, surely you know this is much closer to Feynman than "Goddidit."

Actually, if there is a creator, I don't necessarily believe that it is what others see as God. I see it more as some underlying intelligence that created things. I actually feel that QM is quite often misinterpreted – especially the whole observer/outcome thing.

December 31, 2009
3:00 am PDT
Guest
35739

Actually, if there is a creator, I don't necessarily believe that it is what others see as God. I see it more as some underlying intelligence that created things. I actually feel that QM is quite often misinterpreted – especially the whole observer/outcome thing.

So, you're a Deist?

January 19, 2010
8:47 pm PDT
Zen
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What is it about quantum mechanics that physicists find so strange? Simply this: Quantum Mechanics states that our reality cannot exist independent of a conscious observer

QM says no such thing. Further – most people develop the concept of object permanence by the time they're 2.

We don't understand quantum mechanics because we've only been studying it seriously for a few decades. Quantum entanglement is fascinating and tells us that we don't understand the underlying science. NOTHING in the science implies a deity.

Just as an ancient viking heard the rumble of thunder and "knew" that it was Thor hammering on the fundament – so now we observe entangled atoms and declare that divinity is to blame.

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