I see the stuff you are saying and this is stuff that is passed down at the moment of conception. What I'm talking about is specific stuff that happens after conception.

For instance, I have a fear of water. It started after a near drowning experience when I was a kid. I can see this stuff being passed down to my two boys. Since this happened before they were conceived. Now if a traumatic experience happened now after they were born, I don't see how it could be passed down. They have all the genetic material already from me and my wife, they aren't going to get any more.

I realize this is theory, as with most stuff in this field, I'm just expressing my question about it. If these memories are being passed down then I don't think it would be genetic, maybe something else that we haven't discovered.

My family has a long history of passing down ESP from generation to generation. Most everyone on my father's side has a trait or two that they know about. I have my traits that have popped up from time to time but so far my two sons haven't shown any talent in it yet. So we'll see there.

And yes I do get where you are coming from. I just want to make sure I'm making sense here. I'm more awake now.

Well my wife had no "near drowning" experience in her life - But the thing with my wife is - The "Reader" defined and described EXACTLY how my wife's great-great-grandmother drowned, when and where.... Her mom (my wife's) is a genealogist. There were diary entries that told of this - as well as other documents.

Now the thing is - the "Reader" had to tap into something to be that exact ... (which I told her (the reader) this impressed me)... So thus - did the "Reader" tap into her (wife's) Genetic past? The answer is clearly, "YES!" /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> she did.

I still to this day fail to see why the "Reader" was so upset with me on telling her this. I would think she would welcome this. Clearly she did 'see' - it was just her "application" of the 'reading' was mis-applied.

The same with the "thumb report" - something "Genetic" had to be passed down to the grandson ... at least IMHO.

Now could "Genetic Memory" be the wrong term in what I am seeing? Yes it could be .. thus why I went from that to:

A. History in general?

B. Your personal genetic / ancestry history during these relaxed - focused times?

C. Are you seeing their genetic/ancestry past?

Hey debate and even heated is a good thing. It helps sort out the "Chaff" ... I welcome it. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

-------------------------------------------------

Here is a GOOGLE ... for those interested in

GENETIC MEMORIES (thought this was good reading when I first ventured into this theory.)

"... It also explores genetic memory—how savants 'know things they never learned'. Both the acquired savant and genetic memory have vast implications for accessing dormant potential—a little Rain Man perhaps—within us all..."

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As for Psi abilities being genetic:

- > You will not get any disagreement with me on this. I am an Empath ... my kids were NOT told this until they started at the same age (childhood) that I became aware. I kept this from them, in hopes they would not be 'one' ... They call it their "inherited curse from dad" ... and I have to agree.

- > Also from my own study ... there is a big difference between "spiritual" gifts and Genetic ones. The spiritual are set to a specific set of rules. They (spiritual) are at the control of "Spirit" - "God" or whatever belief system is at the heart. Seldom can they cross over into the control of the person - as several "believers" have told me, in various religious terms: "Spirit is in control, not the human..."

Where as genetic is at the control of the human - like art and such - they choose when, where and how it will 'be' used. It can cross over into their spiritual lives, if they choose to. Just like art can become "religious/spiritual" art .. music, like wise and such.

So ya .. you'll have 100% agreement on Genetic Psi Abilities.

For instance, I have a fear of water. It started after a near drowning experience when I was a kid. I can see this stuff being passed down to my two boys. Since this happened before they were conceived. Now if a traumatic experience happened now after they were born, I don't see how it could be passed down. They have all the genetic material already from me and my wife, they aren't going to get any more.

I realize this is theory, as with most stuff in this field, I'm just expressing my question about it. If these memories are being passed down then I don't think it would be genetic, maybe something else that we haven't discovered.

My family has a long history of passing down ESP from generation to generation. Most everyone on my father's side has a trait or two that they know about. I have my traits that have popped up from time to time but so far my two sons haven't shown any talent in it yet. So we'll see there.

And yes I do get where you are coming from. I just want to make sure I'm making sense here. I'm more awake now.

My only problem with this theory is how is genetic memories being passed on after the genetic material was passed? I'll use the first case given in the thread, the fear of water that JJB mentioned. The grandmother drowned in a river and the fear of water was passed on to the grand daughter. By the time she drowned she had already had a child (at least I hope so otherwise it might make for an interesting discussion on other matters) and had already passed on her genes to her daughter and in turn those genes were later passed on to JJB's wife. I can see any genetic memories being passed on when the genetic material (egg and sperm) with the conceiving of a child but I can't see how any memories could be passed on after the child is born. To me the memories wouldn't be genetic but something else.

Do I make sense or is it the lack of sleep talking nonsense?

Well let me ask some questions here -

Have you heard the following statements?

.... You look just like - (genetic ancestor)!

.... Your (blood family) liked 'that' also!

.... You sound (talk like and/or have the same voice) as (blood family).

.... Your love of "X" is just like (blood relative). (Non art related stuff).

Or .. as in the case with my family - Art talent runs in the family. This is well documented.

There is A LOT of genetic material passed on.

So why not "dormant" memories? Not any and all memories ... but those that were/are Trauma related, something that was done repeatative (like hobbies - job - traditions) and such. Then if the other mate had similar event(s) in their life .. those similar genetic memories - habits and such meet up and are part of the formation of that new life.

Also Genetic Memories is a "work in progress" THEORY .... and it may be that I am using the wrong terminology to express what I am trying to relay.

Look at the history we carry in our blood line ....

Now specifically - the G'grandmother drowning. I'm not saying that that came DIRECTLY from her. But from her children watching this all happen in front of them. That is TRAUMA, even just watching.....

Just the kids G'father loosing his thumb ... that was trauma and it would be hard to explain how the g'sons thumb starting hurting at the same age the accident happened to his g'father. Now ya it could be 'coin-ik-a-dink' ....

The point being, more specific.

I'm not denying the "reader" has some Psi Ability. What I am throwing out is that the application of what they are getting is not "Past Life" (Re-incarnation).

The question needs to be asked, what is the "Reader" 'seeing'?

Can they prove it's not:

A. History in general?

B. Your personal genetic / ancestry history during these relaxed - focused times?

C. Are you seeing their genetic/ancestry past?

No, they cannot prove it's not .. any more then they can prove it's Re-incarnated Past Life.

Those "Readings" that I've been exposed to - have shown to have other more genetic/blood line answers ...

Did this make sense.. a little long ... but I want to be sure you get where I'm coming from. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

Do I make sense or is it the lack of sleep talking nonsense?

This is one subject we can completely agree on, JJ. I have zero faith in any reading that claims to be a past life reading. That's not to say that I don't believe in reincarnation. It's just that I don't have any faith in anyone's ability to "read" past lives and they certainly couldn't prove it if they did. Even if they could read your past life, to what point? Then again, I'm only interested in the future, so I admit that I'm biased.

I actually believe that most "psychic readers" are actually reading our minds, so I suspect that most past life readings are wishful thinking taken from the sitter's mind or from the reader's imagination. Just my humble opinion, of course.

They may even be reading an object that we have inherited that is on our person. For example, if I'm wearing my grandmother's ring, could they get a reading based on my grandmother's life and call it my past life? Who knows?

As a side note, I have had a few readings that told me things that I did not know at the time that proved later to come true. Those baffle me, since I don't see how those could have involved reading my mind (or my face, as many fakes do). Those are the readings that make me say "hmmm". /blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

I think that one's that actually can be verified and/or validate (though they be far and few) ... are seeing something - but I think their application or interpretation of it is off - a reasonable and fair challenge with the above - A. B. C. is very valid.

Other so called 'readers' or wanna-bee attention seekers ... nothing more and a whole lot less.

How can we tell? See how they respond and are open minded enough to except the real possiblity that their 'reading' belongs in A. B. or C. ... or do they get emotional and to one degree or another "loose it"?

Multi-Forum Posted:

I'm going to make this some what 'generic' in that I do not wish to name the person. IF they wish to respond in the forum, that is their choice.... But the thought I wrote them is mine, thus my permission to post this part of the dialog is permitted.

I had a chat the other night with someone that claims to "read" Past Lives.

Here is the thing:

Are you seeing:

A. History in general?

B. Your personal genetic / ancestry history during these relaxed - focused times?

C. Are you seeing their genetic/ancestry past?

The point being and the "reader" saw exactly what I meant - there is no proof being offered that these "readings" are Past Life as in "Re-incarnation".

See, this is the challenge - even the "Reader" has no real clue what he/she is seeing ... just HISTORY ... the question is "Who's?"

As I pointed out to a few 'Readers' over the years ... "IF this feels right to you..." is not proof they are correct in their application of the "Reading" - Feelings (of any kind) only prove the person is alive. That is the only thing "feelings" prove.

This is one subject we can completely agree on, JJ. I have zero faith in any reading that claims to be a past life reading. That's not to say that I don't believe in reincarnation. It's just that I don't have any faith in anyone's ability to "read" past lives and they certainly couldn't prove it if they did. Even if they could read your past life, to what point? Then again, I'm only interested in the future, so I admit that I'm biased.

I actually believe that most "psychic readers" are actually reading our minds, so I suspect that most past life readings are wishful thinking taken from the sitter's mind or from the reader's imagination. Just my humble opinion, of course.

They may even be reading an object that we have inherited that is on our person. For example, if I'm wearing my grandmother's ring, could they get a reading based on my grandmother's life and call it my past life? Who knows?

As a side note, I have had a few readings that told me things that I did not know at the time that proved later to come true. Those baffle me, since I don't see how those could have involved reading my mind (or my face, as many fakes do). Those are the readings that make me say "hmmm". /blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

I'm going to make this some what 'generic' in that I do not wish to name the person. IF they wish to respond in the forum, that is their choice.... But the thought I wrote them is mine, thus my permission to post this part of the dialog is permitted.

I had a chat the other night with someone that claims to "read" Past Lives.

Here is the thing:

Are you seeing:

A. History in general?

B. Your personal genetic / ancestry history during these relaxed - focused times?

C. Are you seeing their genetic/ancestry past?

The point being and the "reader" saw exactly what I meant - there is no proof being offered that these "readings" are Past Life as in "Re-incarnation".

See, this is the challenge - even the "Reader" has no real clue what he/she is seeing ... just HISTORY ... the question is "Who's?"

As I pointed out to a few 'Readers' over the years ... "IF this feels right to you..." is not proof they are correct in their application of the "Reading" - Feelings (of any kind) only prove the person is alive. That is the only thing "feelings" prove.

I saw this too and went, "HUH? what and how did they, well ask or measure this in the kid?" I found nothing? I mean if they just asked questions ... how did they phrase it?

Now understand I'm not saying the doctor is "bad" ... but what is his view, say on Empaths? What is his view on Psi? (I could find nothing, at the moment.) What is his view on the possible hypothesis on Imprinting? Did he do a genetic Genealogy Background Check. Ya, it's time consuming and you would likely have to hire and Expert in Genealogy Research. A good one would take about 2-4 months to get a good foundation trail started.

See with one U of Wash. prof. that I actually talked privately about this statement, he went, "That is our way of saying, We are not and did not go there, for many various reasons." He was not all that familiar with the guys work. It was more the statement and then I had to ask, "Is this a generic statement?" It is possible.

I'm very surprised that anyone working in the psi field would not have heard of Stevenson. He was kind of the father of reincarnation research here in the States. Anyone who has done even casual reading in the area should be familiar with his work. His work is discussed in just about every book on reincarnation that I have ever read. I guess you wouldn't know about him if you don't have an interest in the area, though.

As I said before, he had private funding, so he was able to assemble a large team to help him. These teams were made up of people from the country where the case presented and with his regular staff. Background checks were done before he ever actively took an interest n the case. His teams checked every possible link between families and people and many cases were dismissed because of possible links. Some of the cases were from the same family, so genetic memory is a possibility in those cases. In others, not only was there no relationship of any kind, the person identified as the past life had been dead for a year or more by the time the child was born. I really cannot understand how genetic memory can play into those cases, simply because dead people cannot pass on genetic memories, especially the memory of dying. That's the wall I keep running into.

I just can't buy either a genetic memory explanation because the person involved was dead before the child was born. I also can't buy psychic or empathic imprint as an answer.

Psychic Imprint, also called Psychometric Feed or Astral Echo, is the ability to leave behind a psychic energy signature upon coming into contact with an object, subject or location. The problem with this theory is that many of these children never came into any contact with an object, subject or location associated with the deceased before their memories began, so that just doesn't work as an explanation.

Someone with empathic power can leave behind an Empathic Imprint, Emotional Feed or Empathic Echo, so that anyone who comes into contact with an imprinted object, subject or location would have a particular emotion or emotional state imposed upon them. The problems with this theory as a solution are two-fold: empathic imprints only involve an emotional state or emotions, not memories, and once again, we come back to the fact that there is no contact with an object, subject or location that could trigger these emotions. It just doesn't work as an answer for these cases.

I don't have all the details of his research in front of me, but I feel comfortable stating that Dr. Stevenson was at least capable of doing screening for psi ability since anyone interested in psi would be familiar with research protocols in the field. The Duke Parapsychology Laboratory (now the Rhine Institute) was founded in 1935 for the sole purpose of studying parapsychology. In 1937 the Journal of Parapsychology was founded as an independent peer-reviewed professional journal to provide an outlet for reporting the findings from the Duke as well as from other laboratories at home and abroad. Dr. Stevenson would have been familiar with this Journal and current research standards.

He had 30 years worth of information about paranormal research available to him when he began his work in the field of "cases of the reincarnation type", as he called them. He was a successful academic before he began his research into reincarnation, so I feel confident that he would be both knowledgable about research protocols and diligent in applying them to his cases.

Dr. Stevenson never claimed to have proven the existence of reincarnation, just that reincarnation was the best explanation available for some cases.

I saw this too and went, "HUH? what and how did they, well ask or measure this in the kid?" I found nothing? I mean if they just asked questions ... how did they phrase it?

Now understand I'm not saying the doctor is "bad" ... but what is his view, say on Empaths? What is his view on Psi? (I could find nothing, at the moment.) What is his view on the possible hypothesis on Imprinting? Did he do a genetic Genealogy Background Check. Ya, it's time consuming and you would likely have to hire and Expert in Genealogy Research. A good one would take about 2-4 months to get a good foundation trail started.

See with one U of Wash. prof. that I actually talked privately about this statement, he went, "That is our way of saying, We are not and did not go there, for many various reasons." He was not all that familiar with the guys work. It was more the statement and then I had to ask, "Is this a generic statement?" It is possible.

Jj, perhaps he is really able to remain impartial and approach from the objective, scientific position? If he really has no dogs in that fight then he would refrain from having any preconceived notions or view on empaths. I think that would be important for a researcher to be able to do. If I remember my 7th grade science teachings, this is a main point in the gathering of empirical evidence.

Wouldn't explanations be great???

JJB raised an interesting point about Stevenson's studies when he asked if he had considered other psi explanations. I did a little research and I found a statement in one of his articles that indicates that he did.

"The children subjects of these cases, however, never show paranormal powers of the magnitude required to explain the apparent memories"

Apparently, he checked these kids for psychic ability as well as possible alternate sources of knowledge regarding the deceased. Very interesting. It certainly makes you think, doesn't it?

I saw this too and went, "HUH? what and how did they, well ask or measure this in the kid?" I found nothing? I mean if they just asked questions ... how did they phrase it?

Now understand I'm not saying the doctor is "bad" ... but what is his view, say on Empaths? What is his view on Psi? (I could find nothing, at the moment.) What is his view on the possible hypothesis on Imprinting? Did he do a genetic Genealogy Background Check. Ya, it's time consuming and you would likely have to hire and Expert in Genealogy Research. A good one would take about 2-4 months to get a good foundation trail started.

See with one U of Wash. prof. that I actually talked privately about this statement, he went, "That is our way of saying, We are not and did not go there, for many various reasons." He was not all that familiar with the guys work. It was more the statement and then I had to ask, "Is this a generic statement?" It is possible.

Not enough smart people, unfortunately.

The stigma of studying psi pretty much kills the career of even the most respected scientist. Plus, the big money is in military and pharma research, so even when paranormal departments exist at universities, they are underfunded and not respected. Even the Rhine Institute at Duke, considered to be one of the best, operates out of a little old house instead of a nice new research lab. On the other hand, you should see the biomedical building. Shiny new equipment in a shiny new building - the best of everything. There's even a room that operates like a holodeck. It cost the earth and there are only a few in the world. Meanwhile, Rhine operates on a shoestring budget. It's so depressing. Until psi gets some respect we'll never find the answers we seek. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I think there may actually be research going on but its kept quiet (shhh, have you seen the movie The Men Who Stare at Goats?). Seriously though I am sure the military Psy-Ops folks are doing research all the time. It probably won't be used for the common good though.

Yes it does! Being "a bear of little brain", I'm glad that the smart people of the world are studying this stuff /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Not enough smart people, unfortunately.

The stigma of studying psi pretty much kills the career of even the most respected scientist. Plus, the big money is in military and pharma research, so even when paranormal departments exist at universities, they are underfunded and not respected. Even the Rhine Institute at Duke, considered to be one of the best, operates out of a little old house instead of a nice new research lab. On the other hand, you should see the biomedical building. Shiny new equipment in a shiny new building - the best of everything. There's even a room that operates like a holodeck. It cost the earth and there are only a few in the world. Meanwhile, Rhine operates on a shoestring budget. It's so depressing. Until psi gets some respect we'll never find the answers we seek. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Wouldn't explanations be great???

JJB raised an interesting point about Stevenson's studies when he asked if he had considered other psi explanations. I did a little research and I found a statement in one of his articles that indicates that he did.

"The children subjects of these cases, however, never show paranormal powers of the magnitude required to explain the apparent memories"

Apparently, he checked these kids for psychic ability as well as possible alternate sources of knowledge regarding the deceased. Very interesting. It certainly makes you think, doesn't it?

Yes it does! Being "a bear of little brain", I'm glad that the smart people of the world are studying this stuff /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Very interesting discussion folks! So much to think about and so much more to be studied and hopefully explained someday.

Wouldn't explanations be great???

JJB raised an interesting point about Stevenson's studies when he asked if he had considered other psi explanations. I did a little research and I found a statement in one of his articles that indicates that he did.

"The children subjects of these cases, however, never show paranormal powers of the magnitude required to explain the apparent memories"

Apparently, he checked these kids for psychic ability as well as possible alternate sources of knowledge regarding the deceased. Very interesting. It certainly makes you think, doesn't it?