Really well said. *bravo*

I myself would like to coin it as to what it has already been called then decide, what it is not.

Ah...how many times in history has this been uttered? However, I do understand where you are coming from O. I have been disheartened by the fact that the paranormal community bases much of what it thinks it knows on myth, legends, superstition, conjecture, and supposition. This is where much deserved criticism stems from. While the type of anomolies that we seek are rare... thus far I have seen no evidence that would lead one to logically conclude that certain paranormal phenomena must necessarily be attributed to someone who was once alive and is now dead and actively and intelligently interacting with us. 95% of the data collected by paranormal teams is so subjective that it can not be qualified as "evidence" that even something anomolous occurred. But even the remaining 5% is far from proving any kind of existence beyond this life - we can speculate - sure, but most of that specualtion has been founded in superstition (unfortunately). That rare data that can truely be called anomolous - until we know more - is just that - anomolous. By saying it can't be explained, therefore it must be a ghost - you are in essence saying - it can't be explained, therefore it can be explained. I'm satisfied - for the time being - simply saying that I do not know what it is.

Really well said. *bravo*

--- in both cases, nothing will be found.......

Ah...how many times in history has this been uttered? However, I do understand where you are coming from O. I have been disheartened by the fact that the paranormal community bases much of what it thinks it knows on myth, legends, superstition, conjecture, and supposition. This is where much deserved criticism stems from. While the type of anomolies that we seek are rare... thus far I have seen no evidence that would lead one to logically conclude that certain paranormal phenomena must necessarily be attributed to someone who was once alive and is now dead and actively and intelligently interacting with us. 95% of the data collected by paranormal teams is so subjective that it can not be qualified as "evidence" that even something anomolous occurred. But even the remaining 5% is far from proving any kind of existence beyond this life - we can speculate - sure, but most of that specualtion has been founded in superstition (unfortunately). That rare data that can truely be called anomolous - until we know more - is just that - anomolous. By saying it can't be explained, therefore it must be a ghost - you are in essence saying - it can't be explained, therefore it can be explained. I'm satisfied - for the time being - simply saying that I do not know what it is.

maybe it's more of a mental event. maybe ghosts trigger something in our brain

that lets us "see" them. i dont mean "imagine" them, but actually "experience"

them. if that's the case then all the cameras in the world wouldnt matter. we'd

never be able to photograph them.

(i have an expanded post on my theory in the Paranomal Theory and Hypothesis board)

Wow - this is a good discussion. Thanks for bringing this up Firewyrm.

Here's the problem as I see it...these paranormal shows would have us all believe that paranormal events occur on a daily basis at almost every location where claims are known. In my experience - that simply is not the case. Do I believe that people experience paranormal phenomena? Absolutely. I, myself, have witnessed an inanimate object move - scared the crap out of me! But that was once - I have never seen anything like it before nor since. I didn't expect that to happen - why would I? I wasn't in an investigation - I was sitting in my living room watching television. I didn't have a camcorder by my side ready to film a few seconds of this phenomena - so it will be forever an sole eye witness account and nothing more. I believe that paranormal phenomena (whether it be ghosts, inter-dimensional shifts, or whatever unproven theory one could conjure) is extremely rare and not as common as the paranormal community in large would have you believe. I believe there is some truth in what Dr. O is saying and I believe there is some truth in what others are saying in this discussion as well. It's out there, but the chances of someone actually capturing it when they expect to capture are slim. But we continue to try - nevertheless. I see us as kind of a terrestrial SETI. We sit patiently for that one solitary moment that we capture something that may change the way we view reality.

I had to highlight this, because it doesn't happen very often....... /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

I agree with the SETI analogy --- in both cases, nothing will be found.......

Wow - this is a good discussion. Thanks for bringing this up Firewyrm.

Here's the problem as I see it...these paranormal shows would have us all believe that paranormal events occur on a daily basis at almost every location where claims are known. In my experience - that simply is not the case. Do I believe that people experience paranormal phenomena? Absolutely. I, myself, have witnessed an inanimate object move - scared the crap out of me! But that was once - I have never seen anything like it before nor since. I didn't expect that to happen - why would I? I wasn't in an investigation - I was sitting in my living room watching television. I didn't have a camcorder by my side ready to film a few seconds of this phenomena - so it will be forever an sole eye witness account and nothing more. I believe that paranormal phenomena (whether it be ghosts, inter-dimensional shifts, or whatever unproven theory one could conjure) is extremely rare and not as common as the paranormal community in large would have you believe. I believe there is some truth in what Dr. O is saying and I believe there is some truth in what others are saying in this discussion as well. It's out there, but the chances of someone actually capturing it when they expect to capture are slim. But we continue to try - nevertheless. I see us as kind of a terrestrial SETI. We sit patiently for that one solitary moment that we capture something that may change the way we view reality.

And, just as might be the case with SETI, we wait for that solitary moment and we might not even be using the right equipment to capture that moment.

Wow - this is a good discussion. Thanks for bringing this up Firewyrm.

Here's the problem as I see it...these paranormal shows would have us all believe that paranormal events occur on a daily basis at almost every location where claims are known. In my experience - that simply is not the case. Do I believe that people experience paranormal phenomena? Absolutely. I, myself, have witnessed an inanimate object move - scared the crap out of me! But that was once - I have never seen anything like it before nor since. I didn't expect that to happen - why would I? I wasn't in an investigation - I was sitting in my living room watching television. I didn't have a camcorder by my side ready to film a few seconds of this phenomena - so it will be forever an sole eye witness account and nothing more. I believe that paranormal phenomena (whether it be ghosts, inter-dimensional shifts, or whatever unproven theory one could conjure) is extremely rare and not as common as the paranormal community in large would have you believe. I believe there is some truth in what Dr. O is saying and I believe there is some truth in what others are saying in this discussion as well. It's out there, but the chances of someone actually capturing it when they expect to capture are slim. But we continue to try - nevertheless. I see us as kind of a terrestrial SETI. We sit patiently for that one solitary moment that we capture something that may change the way we view reality.

yeah. what you said, bryan. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />

seriously, you said what i wanted to much better. and i love the SETI analogy.

Here's the problem as I see it...these paranormal shows would have us all believe that paranormal events occur on a daily basis at almost every location where claims are known. In my experience - that simply is not the case. Do I believe that people experience paranormal phenomena? Absolutely. I, myself, have witnessed an inanimate object move - scared the crap out of me! But that was once - I have never seen anything like it before nor since. I didn't expect that to happen - why would I? I wasn't in an investigation - I was sitting in my living room watching television. I didn't have a camcorder by my side ready to film a few seconds of this phenomena - so it will be forever a sole eye witness account and nothing more. I believe that paranormal phenomena (whether it be ghosts, inter-dimensional shifts, or whatever unproven theory one could conjure) is extremely rare and not as common as the paranormal community in large would have you believe. I believe there is some truth in what Dr. O is saying and I believe there is some truth in what others are saying in this discussion as well. It's out there, but the chances of someone actually capturing it when they expect to capture are slim. But we continue to try - nevertheless. I see us as kind of a terrestrial SETI. We sit patiently for that one solitary moment that we capture something that may change the way we view reality.

i don't know how to refute it in a way that would make sense to you or myself for that matter. i think most interactions with ghosts/spirits/whatever one wants to call them are on a more personal level. it's like when considering reincarnation: everyone says 'i was once cleopatra or alexander the great! no one ever says 'well, i was jane austins' 4th cousin twice removed on her mother's side...'.

i am thinking more and more that the very 'area stress' that must occur when a tv crew is setting up may make legitimate contact almost an impossibility. i mean, they come in and there has to be noise, all sorts of people wandering all over the place...i'd run and hide myself. and there is no 'proof' that much of the so-called high-tech stuff even works so who is to say definitively that it is effective? this is all speculation on my part.

after analysis, there is no other explaination of the sightings of my daughter than that she was there in some form. it is just the way it is.

i hope you can find some answers.

best,

annie

These shows, with all the camera's from the "investigation" coupled with all the OTHER camera's and audio that are running during the filming of a TV/movie would have caught SOMETHING by now. ANYTHING, even if by accident....SOMETHING!

Yes, Ive seen the St. Augustine Lighthouse (which, btw, was THE episode of GH that got me to start watching any/all paranormal media shows, because I thought "just maybe thats real!") But, after seeing the "debunking" of not only this episode but many other of the "good" episdoes of GH, im convinced the show is nothing more than idiot ex-plumbers and a production crew playing "did you hear that???" coupled with possible faking or at the minimum over-dramatizing of the evidence.

Im more taking the side that, with all of this "evidence" they've all complied...wouldnt even ONE SINGLE BELIEVABLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE have been found, even if by SHEER accident or coincidence? Yes, these guys might be bafoons. They might be the dumbest paranormal investigators to ever walk the planet. But, if you combine all the shows, im guessing Eastern State Penn (thought to be UBER HAUNTED by 1000's) has been investiagated 100's of times. You add up all the video taken on those investigations and you GOT to have SOMETHING!

But we dont. We've got nothing!

And, I personally believe that if there WAS some real evidence, these shows wouldnt just "air it" they would publicize it, make it a HUGE deal, and you'd see it on CNN/Fox news. If by no other reason than to give some PR to the show that has credible evidence.

I dont think the paranromal shows are necessarily "good" at what they do, I do think that if you were to spend THAT much time in "haunted places" you'd have SOMETHING have happened by now!

I have to agree with Firewyrm.......

Seems like many paranormal believers claim an experience in childhood. A child has a huge imagination and little understanding of the world around them. So a ghost or spirit experience is what they remember and carry that belief with them through life.

As adults, the paranormal answer is ruled out because of more knowledge of their environment. This is where the bogus theory that "children are more open to the spirit world, so they see more", comes up...... /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Read about the Spiritualist movement in the late 1800's. You will find the birth of communicating with the spirit world. You will also find it was 100% fraud. The Fox sisters started it --- they admitted they had faked it -- but other charlatans have kept the industry going to what it is today......Taking advantage of people who want to believe.........

Scamming people for cash is how it started and where it still is today..........

I must disagree in some cases. Yes I experienced things as a child, but I continued to as I am now an adult. I still do. Also, I know my mother experienced things in her adult life at the same time I was experiencing them as a child. My grandmother has also. While yes, things are facked, there is too much that has been proven not to be.

see, but i think a lot of adults would just convince themself

that it had to be something normal. but then there are

those of us that accept that the paranormal is possible.

Definitely!

Well, at first I did try and find a logical answer for them, something that would explain them normally.

After that I was willing to accept them as paranormal and proof to me that ghost/spirits, or what have you, do exist both residually and intelligently.

see, but i think a lot of adults would just convince themself

that it had to be something normal. but then there are

those of us that accept that the paranormal is possible.

because you were willing to except them and not dismiss them as something "normal"

where as i think most adults would dismiss it or try to convince themself it was something completely normal.

Well, at first I did try and find a logical answer for them, something that would explain them normally.

After that I was willing to accept them as paranormal and proof to me that ghost/spirits, or what have you, do exist both residually and intelligently.