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OfflineOk, so curiosity is getting to me.
I plan on taking two dvr's of the same brand and conducting some recording experiments.
In absence of a true faraday cage, I will just have to use what I have on hand. I plan on taking the control recorder with disabled mic and placing it in a quart paint can. I will then place said paint bucket and place it in a microwave. This apparatus will be taken to a cemetery where I have had plenty of success recording evp in the past. This apparatus will be placed alongside the variable recorder and I will record 6 15 minute segments on both the control and variable experiments. I will be making a youtube video and will share my results. I will keep repeating this experiment weekly until I get what I know I eventually will: An evp sans microphone attachment. This won't be the strictest experimental protocol, but I think it will go a long way to answering some questions.
thanks
Andy
edit: The microwave will not provide sufficient RF blocking. After doing some research on DIY faraday cages, I found out that the microwave oven is only good at blocking the specific frequency emitted by the magnetron. Other signals can still penetrate the oven. So as a double redundancy, I am going to place the control recorder into a quart paint bucket which is affixed to the bottom of a 1 gallon paint bucket (via expanding foam). The 1 gallon bucket will be placed on the ground on a rubber mat. This should provide double redundancy on em shielding. The following link is an example of using a metal tin to do the same thing.
OfflineYou are correct about the microwave. They aren't very good at blocking their own frequencies either. I don't remember a microwave that I've tested with a Spectrum Analyzer and Cal'd antenna that didn't leak 10 dBm at about 10 feet. That's crazy.
You should also keep whatever container you are using grounded. This would greatly help its EMIC.
OfflineDo you mean DVR’s or DAR’s? Video or audio recorders?
First, I am not comparing or suggesting, just relating what I am doing.
I have conducted experiments/testing with a mic less recorder. As I have with placing a recorder in something and I know of someone who conducted the Bell Jar experiment. I understand yours is a preliminary experiment and you won’t necessarily have the problems I did.
I found with my preliminary fact finding experiments/testing (to establish baseline results before the actual ones) that I had a problem with placing audio recorders into cans, boxes, jars and anything else I could shove one onto thinking I was creating a soundless environment for the recorder. In each case I found that the container itself, being a solid as some of the other sound proofing items I thought would work, were actually great conductors of sound and that different outside sounds relating to the conductivity of the container were being picked up by the recorder with the mic.
I have to admit and take into account that my experiments won’t be the same as yours. I am trying to keep things as simple as I can too. I don’t want to over complicate things and I am not an electronics expert either. Which is ok for me as I am not interested in anything besides physical sound. I also didn’t do my experiments/testing in a cemetery or abandoned building that should be very quiet to begin with. I began my experiments/testing in and around my own home with known noises so I would have baseline results for comparison.
So far the best thing I found for my experiments will be one of my camera cases lined with acoustical treatment foam, which is relatively inexpensive and designed to reduce or eliminate sound as best as it can. Remembering that for me, I only want to block out physical sound and nothing else since my theory relates to recordings being picked up directly by a recorder. So far nothing has compared to the camera case for me.
Now that I have baseline information for comparison I am taking my experiment to Gettysburg, Pa. this Sept. where I found a place that I can normally get class ‘A’ EVP’s or what I perceive as possible voices fairly regularly. We go every year so I have already ruled out many possibilities for the possible voices. This will be my first official disabled mic recorder experiment. I am kind of excited as I consider what I have done so far as just testing.
I am looking forward to your future posts.
OfflineSorry, DVR – Digital Voice Recorder
I might add some redundancy layers as well, and ground the whole apparatus with a short ground spike. I don't plan on driving a 6' copper pole into the ground for such a simple experiment, but as a backup, a short ground spike should do ok, provided the soil isn't super dry.
thanks
Andy
edit: I cannot wait to go to gettysburg. Two reasons…I am going to take an ungodly amount of daylight infrared photographs, and I also cannot wait to see what kind of evp I might get. It will have to wait until next year, as this year's paratrip budget is going to QM in a month.
OfflineI want to go to Gettysburg as well but don't know when I will get a chance.
I've always hated that DVR stands for two things in this field. That's why I like seeing the spread of DAR (digital audio recorder) to stop the confusion.
Keep up with the experiments and let us know what everyone finds.
OfflineUpdate:
I have tried variations in the paint bucket faraday cage approach and honestly, they are too RF leaky. I have made sure that the lids are stripped of any coatings and are making good electrical contact with rest of the bucket. Just didn't like the amount of RF that was still making it's way into the chamber.
So did a little research and found some DIY solutions using basic kitchenware, lol. Basically I will be using a large covered pot and placing a sealed tin with the recorder inside it. Preliminary testing shows that this is a much better solution with RF blockage, and I think we have a winner. If I wasn't saving every cent I have at the moment, I would likely use the faraday cage from sciencefirst.com for 15 dollars.
The current RF shielded enclosure that I have come up with is more of a Hoffman box, but unlike a Hoffman box, I plan on grounding it in the same fashion as a faraday cage. First experimentation will likely begin tomorrow night.
Keep you updated
Andy
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OfflineAM/FM radio was placed in chamber to check attenuation of mediumwave and FM VHF signals
baby monitor 400mhz was placed in chamber to check attenuation of UHF lo signals
800mhz work radio (motorola trunking) was placed into chamber to check attenuation of UHF hi signals
80211g usb receiver was placed in chamber to check attenuation of 2.4ghz signals
In all cases, the radio either lost signal or connection. I cannot be that accurate with the things that I have around the house, but I am pretty comfortable that this solution is broad enough to properly attenuate medium wave signals all the way up to microwave signals. Only wildcard would be longwave stuff, but longwave propagation tends to penetrate just about anything.
OfflineAM/FM radio was placed in chamber to check attenuation of mediumwave and FM VHF signals
baby monitor 400mhz was placed in chamber to check attenuation of UHF lo signals
800mhz work radio (motorola trunking) was placed into chamber to check attenuation of UHF hi signals
80211g usb receiver was placed in chamber to check attenuation of 2.4ghz signals
That's pretty clever!
In all cases, the radio either lost signal or connection. I cannot be that accurate with the things that I have around the house, but I am pretty comfortable that this solution is broad enough to properly attenuate medium wave signals all the way up to microwave signals. Only wildcard would be longwave stuff, but longwave propagation tends to penetrate just about anything.
Well, the RF bands are filled with all kinds of stuff all over the place that those devices won't pick up. But let's be realistic, you are probably only interested in what is likely to interfere with the recorder. I don't really see RF for an audio recorder really interfering in any way, unless you have a bad ground and copper, or some similar good conductor creating an antenna effect. I think your paint can will certainly block out RF radiation within reason for the experiment though. That's my professional opinion anyway. I wouldn't sweat trying to measure any RF around the area and I have never placed much worth into actual Faraday Cages, except for ESD. RF can reasonably be blocked by simple methods.
OfflineI'm curious to hear the results of your experiment Andy. Eric and I tried the microwave route with results such as yours. I also looked at the $15.00 Faraday cage, but honestly did not want to waste money if that doesn't work either. So please post results as you can.
OfflineI'm curious to hear the results of your experiment Andy. Eric and I tried the microwave route with results such as yours. I also looked at the $15.00 Faraday cage, but honestly did not want to waste money if that doesn't work either. So please post results as you can.
Oklahoma weather is starting to tick me off. It has stormed every night this week with torrential downpours. At this point I am praying for a quiet night tonight, because this is starting to get ridiculous. I have everything ready to go just sitting by the desk, lol. I dunno, usually in august Oklahoma is firmly stuck in a drought. Will try again tonight.
Andy
OfflineOklahoma weather is starting to tick me off. It has stormed every night this week with torrential downpours. At this point I am praying for a quiet night tonight, because this is starting to get ridiculous. I have everything ready to go just sitting by the desk, lol. I dunno, usually in august Oklahoma is firmly stuck in a drought. Will try again tonight.
Andy
We had a rainy June, which has led to a hot and humid August. What we are finding is the quantity of EVP that we get is a bit influenced by weather, with more seemingly in turbulent weather conditions. So I do agree with the thought that inclement weather sometimes does activate para phenomena.
I hope you get the quiet night. Looking forward to seeing your results.
OfflineYou are correct about the microwave. They aren't very good at blocking their own frequencies either. I don't remember a microwave that I've tested with a Spectrum Analyzer and Cal'd antenna that didn't leak 10 dBm at about 10 feet. That's crazy.
You should also keep whatever container you are using grounded. This would greatly help its EMIC.
It's not that crazy when you consider that the magnetron inside it is putting out enough energy to literally melt your brain in the time it takes you to read Dilbert in the morning paper. That's an insane amount of power to be shielding with anything smaller than a bank vault, so for as light as it is, the shielding is pretty effective in my book. You are right that there are usually a few small leaks though, which is why I don't stick my face in the window to watch the turntable spin. My eyes are bad enough as it is without boiling the ocular fluid in them.
Even grounding can create noise in analog signal paths, if you accidentally get two ground references that aren't at the same relative potential. Yet another of the many reasons I love digital signal transmission so much.
OfflineIt's not that crazy when you consider that the magnetron inside it is putting out enough energy to literally melt your brain in the time it takes you to read Dilbert in the morning paper. That's an insane amount of power to be shielding with anything smaller than a bank vault, so for as light as it is, the shielding is pretty effective in my book. You are right that there are usually a few small leaks though, which is why I don't stick my face in the window to watch the turntable spin. My eyes are bad enough as it is without boiling the ocular fluid in them.
Even grounding can create noise in analog signal paths, if you accidentally get two ground references that aren't at the same relative potential. Yet another of the many reasons I love digital signal transmission so much.
I can't remember what I was getting at ~1 foot, but it was pretty high, so I suppose it'd have been around 13 dBm. I find it ironic how high up a microwave sits and how many guys stand just right in front of it! But yeah, your eyes are usually the first thing to hurt if you are starting to get cooked, but if you believe that RF may cause cancer, then its something to consider.
And you are right. If you have bad grounding on an analog line, you'll have noise. But this is a digital recorder with the mic disconnected right? The mic, if it were the quartz crystal or similar type would be your biggest sensitivity issue. Unless I'm missing something, which is very possible!
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OfflineUpdate, sorry for the delay. This one will have to be a redo. I have not completed audio review yet, but I could tell by looking at the files that the control recorder lost power durring record (fresh batteries, as usual). Variable recorder did just fine. I am looking forward to hearing what may or may not be there, but for the purposes of the experiment, the whole thing will have to be redone since control recorder cut out. No comparative data, but I still might get lucky on the variable recorder.
thanks
Andy
OfflineWent through the audio from the variable recorder. Nada, nuthin'. Will have to replicate this experiment again, and will keep doing so until I get an evp sans microphone. One thing was weird to note. On the control recorder in the Hoffman box, even with mic disabled and placed in ziplock baggie, wrapped in towel, placed in sealable tin, and placed in Hoffman box, there was still a large amount of case noise from the recorder being bounced around the tin. I know the internal mic was disabled. Just weird and unexpected.
thanks
Andy
OfflineI know you already tackled this problem, unless I missed something, but fly screen (copper screen) attached to a ground will do the same thing. It's how we used to isolate commercial radio transmitters from errant RF.
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