The discussion of NAMBLA makes me want to vomit, having two small children of my own.

I will take your word for it that the abuse of children is being made more and more acceptable...I just can't believe in that kind of thing, it makes me physically sick...always has. I do watch my own children like a hawk...so I guess I am subconsciously aware of what lurks beyond my control.

That's exactly how it started in Germany. Rich people weren't paying their share. Then rich people were bad. Then rich people became a code for Jewish people and then Jewish people became those dirty Jews who were a parasite on the rest of the populace.

Think of what Hitler & crew managed to do. They turned the wealthy people who provided jobs and paid most of the taxes into parasites in the minds of most Germans. Isn't that exactly what is happening here? The very people who hire other people are said to be making a living on the backs of the poor. The top 5% bracket pays almost all of the taxes collected while half of americans either pay no taxes at all or get a refund of all or more than they paid in but the rich are the ones who aren't paying their fair share??? It's totally backwards, through the looking glass thinking but just look at how many people think that way. Add in the anti Israel attitude that seems to be taking on a life of it's own and all of the elements are there for another tragedy.

Or, those two could be perfect examples of the progressive effects of degenerative mental illness...

In Hitler's case, it was the neorological damage of long-term chronic syphillis, but he was really more a product of the time he lived in. Germany got royally shafted by the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. The reperations they were forced to pay the winning side effectively bankrupted them, leaving a large and naturally militaristic nation very pissed at the world. Hitler was almost an inevitability. That's why the allies gave both Germany and Japan an economic rebuilding after WW2, instead of leaving them devastated and in ruins.

Just my opinion, but I think evil is a purely human construct, used to label behaviors the we personally don't approve of. Most of those behaviors stem from simply being selfish, and putting our desires above the welfare of others, which is why so many people seem so evil. Maybe there is "absolute evil" out there somewhere, but I'd have to see it myself to really believe it.

I think that your idea that evil is a purely human construct is even more frightening because it does not allow for factors beyond our control. The fact that people are capable of doing such evil deeds without any sort of demonic influence puts the concept of behavior and consequences squarely on the shoulders of humankind. It seems a little safer to think that 'the devil made me do it' because then it is something we can not control. To realize that someone, just like me, could be so bitter and hateful (or so sick in the head) that they could carry out such horrors is hard to accept. As Mum says, "there but for the grace of God, go I". We learned a word in college that seems to apply here with Hitler's name being brought up- Zeitgeist. I think that Jyb is on to something because the chances of a Hitler ever being able to construct such a warped idea probably could not have happened at any other time or place. The Treaty of Versailles was tough on the Germans and it gave rise to the likes of a bitter and hateful man. Our nation definitely learned a lesson that mere punishment is not enough because it could sow the seeds for future horrors. The Marshall Plan was smart and was probably the beginning of our military being able to understand the power of "winning the hearts and minds" of the people in countries where we bomb them back to the stone age. It's amazing what a chocolate bar, clean water and toilet facilities can accomplish. Just my thoughts on a cold, spring morning.

Absolutely. In fact, to take it one step further- there is probably a point at which the evil person takes the back burner and the pure evil takes center stage. If you go by this kind of thinking you can possibly see that progression with people like Hitler and more recently Jared Loughner in Arizona- the point that you can just look into someone eyes or be in their presence and feel pure evil.

Man, this is a creepy but very interesting discussion. Talk about getting the gears grinding!

Or, those two could be perfect examples of the progressive effects of degenerative mental illness...

In Hitler's case, it was the neorological damage of long-term chronic syphillis, but he was really more a product of the time he lived in. Germany got royally shafted by the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. The reperations they were forced to pay the winning side effectively bankrupted them, leaving a large and naturally militaristic nation very pissed at the world. Hitler was almost an inevitability. That's why the allies gave both Germany and Japan an economic rebuilding after WW2, instead of leaving them devastated and in ruins.

Just my opinion, but I think evil is a purely human construct, used to label behaviors the we personally don't approve of. Most of those behaviors stem from simply being selfish, and putting our desires above the welfare of others, which is why so many people seem so evil. Maybe there is "absolute evil" out there somewhere, but I'd have to see it myself to really believe it.

This makes a lot of sense, actually. It brings to mind the old expression "in league with the Devil". The more evil you do, the more evil you attract until you truly become pure evil or evil incarnate. At this point other people may be able to feel the evil energy coming from you. Hmmm.

Very interesting.

Absolutely. In fact, to take it one step further- there is probably a point at which the evil person takes the back burner and the pure evil takes center stage. If you go by this kind of thinking you can possibly see that progression with people like Hitler and more recently Jared Loughner in Arizona- the point that you can just look into someone eyes or be in their presence and feel pure evil.

Man, this is a creepy but very interesting discussion. Talk about getting the gears grinding!

I believe that regardless of the reasons you are making evil choices or thinking/doing evil things, the closer you inch to the far spectrum of evil, the more you draw on the pure evil that exists in a non physical form. Call it demons, dark energy, whatever- I know there has been discussion of how bad circumstances can manifest a negative entity for instance. Ultimately, I believe that the more removed a person is from any form of good, they are just leaving large openings in their personal self that are just waiting to be filled with bad in it's purest form.

And similarly, I believe the more good a person has in them, the closer in touch they are with good in the spiritual sense- God, angels, "good vibrations" lol.

So when you look into the eyes of someone that surrounds themselves with evil- that does evil things, that revels in the obscene, the disgusting, the unspeakable- the pure evil you see and feel is more than just them- it's compounded of the evil that they've allowed to enter into them and their own acts that have gotten them to that point.

I hope this made sense. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

This makes a lot of sense, actually. It brings to mind the old expression "in league with the Devil". The more evil you do, the more evil you attract until you truly become pure evil or evil incarnate. At this point other people may be able to feel the evil energy coming from you. Hmmm.

Very interesting.

IMHO I truly believe that the "evil" feeling people can get around certain individuals is a culmination of many factors. First off when you look at the spectrum of people, most people fall into the middle category of typical well, "sinner" for lack of a better word. Not perfect, not evil- they make mistakes, do bad things, but also do good things- basically function in a very middle of the road kind of way- make mistakes, learn from mistakes, try to be better ect. The further you go to either side of the spectrum the fewer people there are.

That being said, I believe that there is pure good and pure evil in this world and beyond. I also believe that like begets like. If you lay with the dogs, you'll get fleas sort of thing. If for whatever reason you've become an evil person- whether it's because of things that influenced that behavior- child abuse, sexual abuse, early childhood trauma (ie Hitler, Manson, Dexter lol) or an inherited mental illness, you'll probably have a higher likelihood of making evil or bad decisions in your life. Obviously, some people that have everything going against them still succeed- ce la vie. Just as some people who "had it all" can still end up being complete wretches in life.

I believe that regardless of the reasons you are making evil choices or thinking/doing evil things, the closer you inch to the far spectrum of evil, the more you draw on the pure evil that exists in a non physical form. Call it demons, dark energy, whatever- I know there has been discussion of how bad circumstances can manifest a negative entity for instance. Ultimately, I believe that the more removed a person is from any form of good, they are just leaving large openings in their personal self that are just waiting to be filled with bad in it's purest form.

And similarly, I believe the more good a person has in them, the closer in touch they are with good in the spiritual sense- God, angels, "good vibrations" lol.

So when you look into the eyes of someone that surrounds themselves with evil- that does evil things, that revels in the obscene, the disgusting, the unspeakable- the pure evil you see and feel is more than just them- it's compounded of the evil that they've allowed to enter into them and their own acts that have gotten them to that point.

I hope this made sense. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

I would think that the evil incarnate that everyone is refering to could be an encounter with an evil entity.

However I think that since these entities are called deceivers, what was experienced was entirely different.

I will look in charismatics and reported encounters with them. There are some early accounts of meetings with Rasputin that

evoked the same reactions that were conveyed in the original post. This should be an interesting study.

Pooperdooper (I feel naughty typing that- my mother would have washed my mouth out with soap back in 1968 /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> ), thanks for getting us back on track here. I do believe that the evil incarnate beings could possibly be responsible for some of the dastardly deeds mentioned above but chances are that most of these folks are simply narcissistic deviants and not actually evil (although their acts are certainly heinous). Evil beings among us is such a terrifying thought to me, but I do believe that if they are out there then the possibility also exists for beings that bring light and goodness to our world. I am looking forward to hearing your findings about these "charismatics".

I would think that the evil incarnate that everyone is refering to could be an encounter with an evil entity.

However I think that since these entities are called deceivers, what was experienced was entirely different.

I will look in charismatics and reported encounters with them. There are some early accounts of meetings with Rasputin that

evoked the same reactions that were conveyed in the original post. This should be an interesting study.

I look forward to your findings. Please keep me posted, even if it's only by PM. I am extremely interested in this topic.

However I think that since these entities are called deceivers, what was experienced was entirely different.

I will look in charismatics and reported encounters with them. There are some early accounts of meetings with Rasputin that

evoked the same reactions that were conveyed in the original post. This should be an interesting study.

Part of the problem is that we as a society are losing our moral compass. Things that used to be black and white are now gray. Now right and wrong is "relative". Nothing is bad unless thinking makes it so. I'm okay, you're okay. It is absolutely sickening.

Sex with children is an example of this slippage. Once it was considered appalling but now there are groups and internet sites that tell people that it's okay. People actively admit that they are pedophiles and are still allowed to walk around as free people. Look at NAMBLA. Look at the the many pedophile sites on the net. There's one for every preference. Instead of reinforcing that pedophilia is wrong and that the person who has sexual feelings for children needs to get help ASAP, they tell each other that it's "normal" and to not be ashamed - they just need to change society's point of view. They cite the ancient Romans and Greeks as evidence that it was once considered to be acceptable and should be again. It just makes me sick to my stomach and sick at heart.

NAMBLA is an evil organization because they are actively lobbying to make pedophilia legal and acceptable. These people want no limits on the age of the children involved, and argue that parents should be able to consent if the children are too young to talk. These people are working hard and donating lots of money toward achieving their goals and sadly, there are actually politicians and experts who support them. Pure EVIL.

Young people go to those sites to find out if their feelings are bad and they get told that they aren't and are actually given advice on how to pursue children. In my opinion, anyone who encourages another person to not seek help for sexualizing children is EVIL. What's really horrifying is that there are women on these sites. One woman on a site for people who like little girls admits that she had a great childhood. She also admits that she has the strong desire to torture and kill children. She openly admits that she does not know if she will be able to control this desire.

Personally, I don't give a flying flip about why these people are like they are. I don't care about their backgrounds or their experiences. The important thing is that they are dangerous. Jail doesn't deter them. Many of the people on the pedophile sites have served time for it and it just makes them more careful. These people do not respond to treatment. IMHO, they just need to be exterminated like the vermin they are, starting with the members of NAMBLA. You can feel sad for the rabid dog, but it still has to be put down.

I'm sure there are sites for people who want to commit murder, rape, torture, etc. but I don't have the stomach to find out for myself.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. The behaviors that have become acceptable are appalling. I come from a social services background and I've worked in various volunteer counseling types of positions throughout my adulthood. Time on the crisis line, that type of thing. I've seen the very best and the very worst of people. In many, many cases of evildoing, people don't wake up that morning and think, "woo hoo - today is the day I finally get to do something evil." (some do, but most don't.) But then something happens during the day, and BAM suddenly they've done something they can barely comprehend. Does that make it okay? Hell no. That's the thing. Just because people don't necessarily have the tools to do the "right thing," they still make the choice to do the wrong thing, and ultimately we all have to be responsible for the choices we make, even if a single moment can change everything. I guess for me, I seek to try to understand those people because I need to find a way to cope with some of the acts that people perform, and my emotional mechanism is to seek to understand them. I don't expect others to do it, but for me with my very Pollyanna worldview, I really need sometimes to believe that everyone has something inside of them that is redeemable. That is sometimes a very difficult world view to hold, but for me it is how I choose to do it. It has nothing to do with excusing someone else's behavior and everything to do with my own naive need to hold onto my world view.

I recently watched a documentary called "Deliver us from Evil." It was a horrible thing to watch - about a priest in California who abused hundreds of kids. The Archdiocese knew about it, and when a complaint would arise, they'd merely move him to another parish where he could abuse again. Father O'Grady - can't remember the dude's first name. He was clearly a sick man, but what about the machine that covered it all up? It is almost incomprehensible to me, and I don't know how the people who covered it up (or Father O'Grady, for that matter) could live with that $hit on their conscience. To me, willingly allowing sexual abuse of children, is the ultimate evil.

Sex with children is an example of this slippage. Once it was considered appalling but now there are groups and internet sites that tell people that it's okay. People actively admit that they are pedophiles and are still allowed to walk around as free people. Look at NAMBLA. Look at the the many pedophile sites on the net. There's one for every preference. Instead of reinforcing that pedophilia is wrong and that the person who has sexual feelings for children needs to get help ASAP, they tell each other that it's "normal" and to not be ashamed - they just need to change society's point of view. They cite the ancient Romans and Greeks as evidence that it was once considered to be acceptable and should be again. It just makes me sick to my stomach and sick at heart.

NAMBLA is an evil organization because they are actively lobbying to make pedophilia legal and acceptable. These people want no limits on the age of the children involved, and argue that parents should be able to consent if the children are too young to talk. These people are working hard and donating lots of money toward achieving their goals and sadly, there are actually politicians and experts who support them. Pure EVIL.

Young people go to those sites to find out if their feelings are bad and they get told that they aren't and are actually given advice on how to pursue children. In my opinion, anyone who encourages another person to not seek help for sexualizing children is EVIL. What's really horrifying is that there are women on these sites. One woman on a site for people who like little girls admits that she had a great childhood. She also admits that she has the strong desire to torture and kill children. She openly admits that she does not know if she will be able to control this desire.

Personally, I don't give a flying flip about why these people are like they are. I don't care about their backgrounds or their experiences. The important thing is that they are dangerous. Jail doesn't deter them. Many of the people on the pedophile sites have served time for it and it just makes them more careful. These people do not respond to treatment. IMHO, they just need to be exterminated like the vermin they are, starting with the members of NAMBLA. You can feel sad for the rabid dog, but it still has to be put down.

I'm sure there are sites for people who want to commit murder, rape, torture, etc. but I don't have the stomach to find out for myself.