This seems to be an emotional topic for many. I think we're getting into territory where people are going to start with personal attacks, so I'm going to lock the thread at this time. A reminder for other threads - arguments are terrific - provided you argue about the topic and not the individual. Let's try hard to distinguish the individual from the argument.

Thanks.

Karen

That's where we differ.

My goal isn't to be looked up to or for recognition and you obviously gleaned something different than was intended from all this.

But you are correct in your own words...

"Who Bloody Cares"... LMAO!

How can I put this diplomatically without getting kicked from the forum... ??

You don't need to increase the font size to get your point across, I can read just fine, thank you. Increasing the font size is a lot like yelling at a child; they tend to tune you our the louder and louder you get. You're being obnoxious, rude, and frankly it's rather unpleasant. This forum is for open views and intepretations, no matter how a person "gleans" from it.

You don't need to come off like you're the know it all. This isn't a dictatorship, it's not your way or no way. When you learn to relent, and refrain from policing everyone, man ..what a better place this will be.

I still stand firm on my beliefs in this "field"; and unlike you, I have just learn to curtail my aggressive approach and utilized my abilities in a more hands on teaching method. I only looked up to you because you were a teacher at one time, now it just seems to be a holier than thou, yet crabby, responses. You're being very obtuse and caustic.

Which goes back to what I originally said to you...

"Instead of complaining and policing every team and approach out there on a public forum, write a book, teach a class, do something more personal.."

With that said, Ryan and the rest who have taken a less defensive stance in a conversation such as this, I think you have good ideas on approach. I think I will be resisting any further comments towards Kim / GB's posts. I get the feeling that someone is trying to stir the pot, get it boiling, and I wish not to be privvy to that any further.

/angry.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

I guess I should just refrain from making comments on general forums and stick to the specific ones. Too many thin skinned people although I have to wonder why that is. No one specifically, just a general statement.

What I said earlier as far as scientific method is that it wasn’t open for interpretation or what people consider it to be or what they think it means to them. It is a set protocol. It is not about what one person considers or interprets as meaning scientific and it is not semantics, Scientific means Scientific.

I said; To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Also a scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. I didn’t make it up that is the definition.

I just don’t understand why people would take a word and place their own meaning to it. Simple as that. Wasn’t trying to start an argument just get other people’s feelings and I think I have succeeded.

I am not trying to say anyone has to do anything. People can do as they please. What I was saying is that if someone is going to say they are doing something, then maybe they should do it and not just say it. Nothing more, nothing less.

To answer your example. I may be wrong but what you describe sounds like debunking to me. Finding something that COULD BE the reason.

Putting it to scientific testing involves the basics of observation and experimentation. If I hear something then at best, I have a clue. Then by experimentation over and over and recording my findings and if I am getting the same results. Then I may have evidence and can formulate a hypothesis and that’s practically all there is to it. It’s a simple procedure and I don’t understand why people get so upset. If people don’t want to do it then fine. No skin off my nose.

However, I agree and believe everyone is correct in that it seems like everyone wants to be an individual and do their own thing

I totally agree with your last statement, as it should be, people doing their own thing.

GB... can you be more specific in what do you do as far as "correct interpretation" so I know more where you're coming from?

As for being taken seriously, it comes down to how others interpret you and/or your group by what you do, regardless of what you choose to call it. One of the reasons why I don't really care anymore about what the "community" thinks is that I see, time and again, where it all ends up being a big argument about what one person considers (or interprets) is scientific, or the correct way to go about things... and it jives with what the other person interprets as scientific or the correct way.

And for the record, I do understand the difference between a scientific method. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> However, the important thing in my opinion is that what people consider to be a scientific method and how they apply that opinion. For example, would you consider hearing a creak from another room and coming up with an idea of what it could be, then investigating that possibility to prove it either is that or is not that a scientific method? Because I've had that very example used to describe an investigator's use of scientific method in paranormal investigations.

I guess I should just refrain from making comments on general forums and stick to the specific ones. Too many thin skinned people although I have to wonder why that is. No one specifically, just a general statement.

What I said earlier as far as scientific method is that it wasn’t open for interpretation or what people consider it to be or what they think it means to them. It is a set protocol. It is not about what one person considers or interprets as meaning scientific and it is not semantics, Scientific means Scientific.

I said; To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Also a scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. I didn’t make it up that is the definition.

I just don’t understand why people would take a word and place their own meaning to it. Simple as that. Wasn’t trying to start an argument just get other people’s feelings and I think I have succeeded.

I am not trying to say anyone has to do anything. People can do as they please. What I was saying is that if someone is going to say they are doing something, then maybe they should do it and not just say it. Nothing more, nothing less.

To answer your example. I may be wrong but what you describe sounds like debunking to me. Finding something that COULD BE the reason.

Putting it to scientific testing involves the basics of observation and experimentation. If I hear something then at best, I have a clue. Then by experimentation over and over and recording my findings and if I am getting the same results. Then I may have evidence and can formulate a hypothesis and that’s practically all there is to it. It’s a simple procedure and I don’t understand why people get so upset. If people don’t want to do it then fine. No skin off my nose.

However, I agree and believe everyone is correct in that it seems like everyone wants to be an individual and do their own thing

As for being taken seriously, it comes down to how others interpret you and/or your group by what you do, regardless of what you choose to call it. One of the reasons why I don't really care anymore about what the "community" thinks is that I see, time and again, where it all ends up being a big argument about what one person considers (or interprets) is scientific, or the correct way to go about things... and it jives with what the other person interprets as scientific or the correct way.

And for the record, I do understand the difference between a scientific method. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> However, the important thing in my opinion is that what people consider to be a scientific method and how they apply that opinion. For example, would you consider hearing a creak from another room and coming up with an idea of what it could be, then investigating that possibility to prove it either is that or is not that a scientific method? Because I've had that very example used to describe an investigator's use of scientific method in paranormal investigations.

What's changed is my focus. Screw teams and what they're doing, it's all about the clients who call us in. Whether we "scienfically" and "Empircally" set forth to HELP them, or we gather their families, referrals to counselors or call in clergy... the CLIENT is the reason for the season, Kim.

Bleeding heart, maybe. But the negativity really begins to wane my views on some of those who I really looked up to; you included.

That's where we differ.

My goal isn't to be looked up to or for recognition and you obviously gleaned something different than was intended from all this.

But you are correct in your own words...

"Who Bloody Cares"... LMAO!

I also remember a time when Reagan was very tough on those types of whom I speak but times change I guess. LOL

What's changed is my focus. Screw teams and what they're doing, it's all about the clients who call us in. Whether we "scienfically" and "Empircally" set forth to HELP them, or we gather their families, referrals to counselors or call in clergy... the CLIENT is the reason for the season, Kim.

Bleeding heart, maybe. But the negativity really begins to wane my views on some of those who I really looked up to; you included.

I have asked in several places what people consider ‘scientific’ when it comes to the paranormal (I think I even asked here), and for the most part, it is pretty much the same: a simple series of hear/see something, go find out if you can find a source or recreate it, and declare it either explainable or unexplainable. I have yet to see or hear anything much more scientific beyond that – whether it is from very experienced people, or those on their first case. It’s all the same.

You are correct and that is the problem. People’s incorrect interpretation of the terms they use. Scientific method is a set criteria and not up for interpretation by those who just don’t want to follow them. What I guess I am getting at is, why do people who profess to be whatever they claim, are not willing to do what is necessary to be taken seriously? It looks almost like people are afraid or against doing what is necessary and come up with all kinds of excuses. I am not pointing fingers necessarily but asking questions…

Maybe I just have a skewed opinion on the whole topic, but I just find it counter-productive for a community as a whole, who claims it wants to be taken seriously, to impress upon that desire with bickering over unproven ideas and putting too much consideration into what others do or say, that’s all. It defeats the purpose, in my opinion. Or better put by Regan: I'm damned tired of people/teams policing what others do. If anyone of them spent half the time doing what they're preaching, we can move a step forward.

I understand people just doing what and how they want because then there are no checks and balances that con go against what they say. Very safe approach. However, what you call the bickering and consideration of what others are putting out there as fact doesn’t defeat the purpose, it is the back bone of discovery. Every mainstream scientific study has those who butt heads on the issues, call others findings into question, etc. I don’t see it as policing others but debating the issues being presented. If everyone just stays in their own little world then we can never move forward no matter what is discovered. Besides if the paranormal community doesn't police their own then the public will and that could easily be the end of any serious hard work being done.

I also remember a time when Reagan was very tough on those types of whom I speak but times change I guess. LOL

Thanks for sharing. I am very interested in how people feel about this.

Exactly! No one cares and is why everyone seems to follow the TV shows in what they say & do with little regard for others. Most talk a good story but are more concerned with self recognition than doing what they say they do.

Good informative responses so far. People are being quite helpful in an important decision I am contemplating. Can't wait for some more.

However, the bottom line still is: Being well done is better than being well said.

Quite honestly, Kim, I've respected you greatly in this "field". However, as of late, you're more obsessed with what others are doing. Instead of preaching on a forum, why don't you put your words to use and do a class, write a book, something more proactive?

Your assumptions that every team follows television is trite at best. Just because a team doesn't "air" what they're doing, doesn't lump them into the same catagory.

/angry.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> Your tyraids are annoying lately.

** edit because I can't figure out the quote function **

As Tom said,

What it all boils down to me is really whether or not that specific individual or group believes they are going about things in a scientific manner, not what anyone else’s definition is. I don’t concern myself with attempting to prove them wrong because it would be futile and most probably be considered as an attack when none is necessary. It also won’t change anything in the sense of how I go about things.

Having "researched", scientifically or not, for quite a few years now I have found that wether or not it's scientific does not matter as much as how the client feels at the end of our experiences with them. Clients do not care so much about your gadgets, approach, or science as much as they care about the end result of their home, hearth, children and lives. I believe, in my own personal opinion, that your constant "I'm a better investigator because I preach about science" doesn't bode well with families who are asking for help.

What it all boils down to me is really whether or not that specific individual or group believes they are going about things in a scientific manner, not what anyone else’s definition is. I don’t concern myself with attempting to prove them wrong because it would be futile and most probably be considered as an attack when none is necessary. It also won’t change anything in the sense of how I go about things.

Perhaps they are merely copying what they’ve seen on television, or on other group’s website… But it is what it is. The paranormal community at large seems intent on only doing two things: either complaining about paranormal reality shows, exclaiming that they are giving the “legit” investigators a bad name - and when there’s a lull in conversation there, it is complaining about the inexperienced groups giving them a bad name. I would think that one’s own actions and words would determine their reputation, not what others do or say or think.

I have asked in several places what people consider ‘scientific’ when it comes to the paranormal (I think I even asked here), and for the most part, it is pretty much the same: a simple series of hear/see something, go find out if you can find a source or recreate it, and declare it either explainable or unexplainable. I have yet to see or hear anything much more scientific beyond that – whether it is from very experienced people, or those on their first case. It’s all the same.

Maybe I just have a skewed opinion on the whole topic, but I just find it counter-productive for a community as a whole, who claims it wants to be taken seriously, to impress upon that desire with bickering over unproven ideas and putting too much consideration into what others do or say, that’s all. It defeats the purpose, in my opinion. Or better put by Regan: I'm damned tired of people/teams policing what others do. If anyone of them spent half the time doing what they're preaching, we can move a step forward.

"Who bloody cares!".. really...

Just my two cents.

Exactly! No one cares and is why everyone seems to follow the TV shows in what they say & do with little regard for others. Most talk a good story but are more concerned with self recognition than doing what they say they do.

Good informative responses so far. People are being quite helpful in an important decision I am contemplating. Can't wait for some more.

However, the bottom line still is: Being well done is better than being well said.

Just my two cents.