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Personal Experiences – I do post this with some reservations, as I hope the intent is seen for what I am trying to convey.
I am famous for saying, "Hey, personal experiences, we all have them everyday of our lives."
But what we think we "experienced" and what was, could be as different as night is to day.
I have and some have a very hard time believing it, a very deep respect for Paranormal – Psi field. I am a believer. But, with that being said, my respect for it, more often then not, does not allow me to just allow things to 'slip by'.
I am an investigator – a questioner – one who challenges, to see .. what holds up and what blows away with the slightest breeze of a challenge.
Is an "experience" or 'event' that is being presented as a possible 'paranormal experience' and actual P.E.? In, easily 90+% of the 'experiences' the answer is, "NO!" Sorry, but prove me wrong.
One person a number of years ago, wanted to prove me wrong and presented several 'cases' to me.
I then proceeded to ask him, "Did you look at "this" (specifics) and "that" (specifics)?"
The answer was, "Well, umm, no we didn't."
He then saw my point.
Understand I'm not denying the story – event is true … I'm questioning and challenging the assumption of what it is thought to have been. There is a big difference.
A classic example, to me, is the "Psi Wheel". This (Pin-Wheel) set up is suppose to allow the person to experience and see IF they have Telekinetic powers! In 100% of the cases, they all see the Psi (Pin) Wheel spin at various speeds with the "power of their minds flowing through their hands."
What is actually going on is -> THERMODYNAMICS <- not Telekinetic powers.
This can easily, and I do mean easily, proven and as Thermodynamics. Then the person(s) usually tend to get "emo" because we took away and diminished their "experience" of what they thought WAS happening -vs- what were the facts of the matter.
Well sorry, but it was not Telekinetic, it was not "paranormal" it was an 'experience' with science facts being mis-sold as something else.
I even had a 17 yr old ask me the following, "Does warm air really rise, or did you just make that up to win the argument?" <- I kid you not!!
When I wrote back, "Ever hear of Hot Air Balloons? Why does smoke rise?"
His answer was, "Oh, so that is what is going on?" . o O (sigh)
I'm wondering is the "experience" and what we 'think' happened more important then finding out what DID/IS happening? Especially if we "think it was paranormal' when in all likely hood it was not? Then it comes down to, "what and why are we choosing to ignore facts -vs- fiction?"
Just a very honest and straight forward presented question.
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There's a line from a Tom Hanks' movie, possibly "Sleepless in Seattle", where he's trying to teach his son something and he walks away frustrated saying something to the effect of "it scares me what they don't teach in school anymore".
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I understand that you are a scientist and approach all things with the desire for proof and evidence. That's fine and it is a very healthy approach. No criticism on that score at all.
However, people who have personal experiences sometimes just want to share them. If they want other people's opinions or alternative explanations they will ASK for them. If they don't ask for our opinion, what right do we have to question their experience? It's fine to have opinions about things, but do we really have the right to inflict them on others unless we are asked to do so?
Having a paranormal experience is a life changer for most people. Sometimes they are scared and looking for help. Other times they are excited and happy and just want to share that happiness. Who are we to dash their excitement? To me, it is the equivalent of knocking an ice cream cone out of a child's hand. Why take away someone's happiness? IMHO, other people's feelings are just as important as our opinions. More so, really.
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I understand that you are a scientist and approach all things with the desire for proof and evidence. That's fine and it is a very healthy approach. No criticism on that score at all.
However, people who have personal experiences sometimes just want to share them. If they want other people's opinions or alternative explanations they will ASK for them. If they don't ask for our opinion, what right do we have to question their experience? It's fine to have opinions about things, but do we really have the right to inflict them on others unless we are asked to do so?
Having a paranormal experience is a life changer for most people. Sometimes they are scared and looking for help. Other times they are excited and happy and just want to share that happiness. Who are we to dash their excitement? To me, it is the equivalent of knocking an ice cream cone out of a child's hand. Why take away someone's happiness? IMHO, other people's feelings are just as important as our opinions. More so, really.
Yes I'm going to ask first – Permission to address this?
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Yes I'm going to ask first – Permission to address this?
Of course.
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I understand that you are a scientist and approach all things with the desire for proof and evidence. That's fine and it is a very healthy approach. No criticism on that score at all.
However, people who have personal experiences sometimes just want to share them. If they want other people's opinions or alternative explanations they will ASK for them. If they don't ask for our opinion, what right do we have to question their experience? It's fine to have opinions about things, but do we really have the right to inflict them on others unless we are asked to do so?
Having a paranormal experience is a life changer for most people. Sometimes they are scared and looking for help. Other times they are excited and happy and just want to share that happiness. Who are we to dash their excitement? To me, it is the equivalent of knocking an ice cream cone out of a child's hand. Why take away someone's happiness? IMHO, other people's feelings are just as important as our opinions. More so, really.
First, understand I am a pretty straight forward guy. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't politically correct my words.
Second … let me state this as clearly as I can – I do not question the 'experience' .. what is being questioned and just as easily be challenged is the "interpretation" of the experience … in this case a claim of a "paranormal" experience.
I understand the "need to share" – but is not part of the reason and need to share to also to find out if it was indeed "paranormal" or not? Or have we come to such a place in time and history – that honest frank dialog, questions and challenges are simply not permitted? Are we really just suppose to "node and smile" and go, "cool" and walk away going, "the truth is – it was not 'paranormal' but science."
Thus what have we done to and for the person sharing their experience. Nothing, zip, zilch … we've all but helped feed the wrong interpretation.
Is that really "healthy"????
Again, understand I am very much a believer – but not a blind one or a silent one.
I know I would want to know – "yes", "no" or "the jury is still out". That is why I share my experiences and such, for people to give me "feed back". To question, observe and yes even challenge my interpretation.
I do not want people ever to be afraid to speak … I want to be challenged so I know I can say, "yes, I did/tried – or "no I did not try/do" … "this" and "that", in all honest and thus I can say, here is why I know it was – was not 'paranormal'.
If one is going to share – does not integrity call for dialog to determine the 'interpretation'?
Is the false application of the experience – more important the the truth – facts?
Again, I draw upon the very clear experiences that 100's of 1,W's have "experienced" with the "Psi-Wheel" (Pin-Wheel) They were and some still are convinced they experienced and witnessed Telekinesis. They do not understand that they actually experienced and witnessed was and is ..>> Thermodynamics.
Now – based on the "Just let them share and be silent", mode …. what exactly are we fueling? Fact or Fantasy?
If we want the Paranormal Research to be taken seriously – do we not have to start at "home" and be serious about it FIRST? Helping people to understand the difference between "Paranormal" and "Science/Physics"?? Or is it just all about the "warm fuzzy" experience and well – just be quiet and 'don't rain on their parade??
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I went back through the personal experience posts in the forum and could not find one other time that someone's personal experience was challenged unless they had asked for people's opinions. Why was poor Joppa the first?
1) The experience was not offered as "proof" of the paranormal.
2) Joppa posted in the personal experiences category, not the paranormal debate or science and the paranormal categories.
3) We were not asked for our opinion or for alternate explanations.
4) We are not the paranormal police. We are neither Joppa's boss nor teacher. We have no right, therefore, to put our two cents in when it is not asked for. That's not scientific. It's just rude and in this instance, it was mean.
5) There would have been plenty of opportunities to talk about investigative techniques on this board. This was simply not the time. It was a time to let another person be happy about something.
Let me put it to you this way. If you posted that you had a new grandchild, would you rather us 1) congratulate you and share in your happiness, or 2) tell you that the planet is too crowded already?
Just my opinion, but it's a very strongly held one.
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I went back through the personal experience posts in the forum and could not find one other time that someone's personal experience was challenged unless they had asked for people's opinions. Why was poor Joppa the first?
1) The experience was not offered as "proof" of the paranormal.
2) Joppa posted in the personal experiences category, not the paranormal debate or science and the paranormal categories.
3) We were not asked for our opinion or for alternate explanations.
4) We are not the paranormal police. We are neither Joppa's boss nor teacher. We have no right, therefore, to put our two cents in when it is not asked for. That's not scientific. It's just rude and in this instance, it was mean.
5) There would have been plenty of opportunities to talk about investigative techniques on this board. This was simply not the time. It was a time to let another person be happy about something.
Let me put it to you this way. If you posted that you had a new grandchild, would you rather us 1) congratulate you and share in your happiness, or 2) tell you that the planet is too crowded already?
Just my opinion, but it's a very strongly held one.
Okay – …. it is clear you are missing the point … so I'm just going to respectfully bow out of the dialog with you.
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Okay – …. it is clear you are missing the point … so I'm just going to respectfully bow out of the dialog with you.
No, I get your point. I just disagree with you.
Let's just agree to disagree and let this drop.
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No, I get your point. I just disagree with you.
Let's just agree to disagree and let this drop.
Then please – humor me – what is my point?
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There's a line from a Tom Hanks' movie, possibly "Sleepless in Seattle", where he's trying to teach his son something and he walks away frustrated saying something to the effect of "it scares me what they don't teach in school anymore".
I was trying to figure out some humor to post to this … and sadly could not come up with any! /blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
As my neighbor with a teenage daughter told me, "It seems they do not teach critical thinking or common sense. Only how to be emotional."
I reminded him of two this: "First this too shall pass. Second teenage years are not so much a 'period of time' as they are an "Exclamation Mark" in time." He sort of laughed.
The sad thing is, they are NOT teaching science in school, critical thinking, simple logic, physics and such. Ya, they are teaching them how to put a condom on a banana. I just hope they (kids) realize they are not suppose to go out and buy a banana and put the condom on IT while they are 'exploring' … But I still wonder if and when that will happen …..
There are students I've talked with that have NO CLUE what Hitler roll was in WW II. They only know he was a political leader and that is all. Seems history, like science is being 'short versioned' …. seriously short versioned.
It is sad .. indeed…..
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Despite your patronizing and condescending tone, I will summarize your points:
Point 1: Because you are an "investigator", everyone has to prove to you that their experience is a "genuine paranormal experience".
My response: No, they don't. You are not a judge and these experiences are not on trial. No one, including Joppa, has any obligation to "prove you wrong" unless they are trying to convince you of something.
Point 2: You are not denying the event is true, you are just "questioning and challenging" the assumption about what it was.
My response: With all due respect, what gives you the right to do that if you are not asked to do so? Joppa did not ask us for our opinions so why do you feel entitled, nay obligated, to offer one?
Point 3: Your "right" to discover what "really happened" is more important than respecting another person's opinion and feelings.
My response: No it isn't.
Point 4: Those of us who just listened to the story and let it pass without expressing doubts or criticisms of Joppa's investigating technique are "choosing to ignore "facts" in favor of accepting a "fiction".
My response: None of us were there. None of us, including you, knows what really happened, so we accept the story and more, we respect Joppa's feelings about the experience. We do not feel the need to judge other people or their experiences and we don't think we have any right to do so unless we are asked. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you were the only one who put up a challenging response to Joppa's post. Obviously, the people who didn't agree just chose not to post anything. It's a very important social skill to say nothing if you can't say something nice. It is also a social skill to not offer unsolicited opinions or advice.
Now can we drop this? We are obviously never going to see eye to eye on this topic.
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Not addressed to K.K. This post has been in process for a few weeks now, based on some concerns I and other's have begun to see happening in a lot of claimed Paranormal INVESTIGATION groups/teams. This is a 'victim' of timing not K.K.
— MULTI-FORUM POST —
This is an observation that has been growing in a number of boards and forums that claim to be "Paranormal INVESTIGATION" boards.
The "WOW" or "Emotional" factor. Like GH …(Ghost Hunters)… is the "WOW" factor winning out? Is "INVESTIGATION" in the Paranormal going Politically Correct or "warm fuzzes" or well … "selling out"?
In the beginning GH was NOT quick to label "Paranormal" – they wanted to be sure the evidence was there … now, like so many P.I. groups … well …. anything and everything is excepted as "Paranormal". Have we so compromised that we might as well call a dripping faucet with a clearly known bad O Ring in it, "Paranormal"?
I feel we've gotten like the Penguins in MADAGASCAR – "Do we tell them the boat is out of gas?" .. "No. Just smile and wave boys, just smile and wave." (I was corrected by my 5 year old granddaughter .. we put out the video and yup .. she was right. I'm so proud of her!!!)
Do we have the integrity – courage and backbone to tell people, "there is no gas" … or … have we wimped out and become, "Nod Smile and wave (smile) …" and allow the truth to be compromised, hidden and such … because of fear of 'offending' and seen .. well less then Investigators with INTEGRITY and COURAGE.
Another question is … why are so many on the "boat of compromise"? What the frakk happened??
Yes, being an investigator means having the gonads to ask the "hard" – "rude" – "mean" – "Not nice" – "closed minded" – "rain on their parade" questions that create honest – truthful and well DOUBT to the claim!
Are we afraid of 'hurting some feelings'?
Hey if they are so emotionally invested that they cannot except honest Q & A's and other observational possibilities … that tells you right there, at least in my book: They are looking for A SPECIFIC ANSWER .. not the truth! So no matter what, it's time to move on .. because simply put, the truth is not what they are looking for. They are seeking ATTENTION, nothing more and actually a whole lot less.
Are Paranormal Investigators after the "Emotional WOW" or the "Objective Truth"?
Is it time to 're-grow a pair'???
Comments?
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Not addressed to K.K. This post has been in process for a few weeks now, based on some concerns I and other's have begun to see happening in a lot of claimed Paranormal INVESTIGATION groups/teams. This is a 'victim' of timing not K.K.
— MULTI-FORUM POST —
This is an observation that has been growing in a number of boards and forums that claim to be "Paranormal INVESTIGATION" boards.
Comments?
Is PUG a paranormal investigation board? I thought we were a discussion forum. Am I mistaken?
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Is PUG a paranormal investigation board? I thought we were a discussion forum. Am I mistaken?
It is both … as in, I am aware that there are Investigation Teams on this board … as well as those who dialog and debate what is and is not Paranormal. Just look at the comments on Ghost Hunters and such.
But if I'm wrong – MOD's please let me know .. I have been known to be wrong once, until I checked and found I was not… /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />
JUST JOKING …. but not joking, please if I'm wrong and out of line… Be the first to "Gibb's me" upside the head.
NCIS fans will know exactly what I mean! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
KK – Look 3/4 of the way down the Forum Page:
Then the first TOPIC IS: Paranormal Investigations
So I think it is both …. at least that is my deductive reasoning skills at work. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
Which means the prior post of mine easily applies here .. if on nother grounds – Good Dialog! /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
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Interesting topic for debate. My opinion as a non- investigator is that many will sell out for the wow factor, especially if there is any type of reward ($ or fame, most likely).
If it is an actual, serious investigation then the team is doing a terrible disservice if they sugarcoat the findings just to make the client happy by telling them what they want to hear. There is no good that can come from this, IMO. Now, for me, I believe that it is imperative to share your findings in a professional and gracious manner. If I was a client, I would not want to be talked down to but rather treated respectfully, even if my claims may have seemed silly to the investigator. As the client, I may have experienced real fear because of my experience and it wouldn't be helpful to just PROVE to me that it's not paranormal. I think that if someone chooses to become an investigator then there is inherent responsibility to be diplomatic when dealing with people who are already vulnerable and seeking assistance. I understand that the scientific mind may not automatically think about this side of it but IMO the way in which you deliver the information is just as important as the information itself.
Now JJ, if someone COMES to you (and is aware of your normal straightforward, pull no punches manner), then they won't be surprised when you question and dismantle their theory or experience because they are already aware and have agreed to your process. In those specific cases, I think it is fine to "tell 'em how it is".
I think that its important to have the good communication skills to interact in a healthy, helpful manner with potentially vulnerable people (even on an anonymous, public forum like this one). I would suggest refraining from immediately dissecting their claims unless you give them a chance to know your process and double checking with them to see if they really want to hear the possibly "hard truth". It's only fair to know what they are signing up for.
With all that said (sorry if I sound like an old windbag here), the great thing about a forum like this is that there are so many threads that one probably already exists that will suit a members needs. Some are more appropriate when looking for ideas and input and some are simply for sharing ideas and experiences, no need to dissect or debunk, just sharing. I like the PUG forum because it is fun but I also feel safe enough to share my experiences and thoughts without fear of ridicule.
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Its pretty much a given that if you put something out on a public discussion forum, you will get other people's opinions whether you ask for them or not. Everything here is open to discussion whether it be in agreement or opposition to one point of view. It is the nature of the beast. There is no reason for the back and forth. No one is right. No one is wrong.
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Its pretty much a given that if you put something out on a public discussion forum, you will get other people's opinions whether you ask for them or not. Everything here is open to discussion whether it be in agreement or opposition to one point of view. It is the nature of the beast. There is no reason for the back and forth. No one is right. No one is wrong.
Very true, one must be prepared for the inevitable. Heck, I wrote on one thread: "Call me crazy, but I actually enjoyed tonights episode of GH…" imagine my shock and dismay when I was actually called "crazy"! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
I'm working on the thick skin thing, getting there slowly but surely.
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Very true, one must be prepared for the inevitable. Heck, I wrote on one thread: "Call me crazy, but I actually enjoyed tonights episode of GH…" imagine my shock and dismay when I was actually called "crazy"!
/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
I'm working on the thick skin thing, getting there slowly but surely.
Why oh why are people so cruel to each other? No one should ever call you crazy, that's just mean. Nuts, maybe, but not crazy. It's important to be civil, you know. /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' />
I've got all of this season's GH's on DVR but I haven't watched them yet. When I do, I'll let you know if I liked that episode too. Then we can be crazy together or tactfully agree to disagree. Which episode was it, by the way? Maybe I'll watch it tonight just to see. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' />
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Why oh why are people so cruel to each other? No one should ever call you crazy, that's just mean. Nuts, maybe, but not crazy. It's important to be civil, you know.
/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
I've got all of this season's GH's on DVR but I haven't watched them yet. When I do, I'll let you know if I liked that episode too. Then we can be crazy together or tactfully agree to disagree. Which episode was it, by the way? Maybe I'll watch it tonight just to see.
/tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' />
Ha, ha crazy can be good as long as everyone's crazy. Since I actually invited folks to call me crazy it was really inevitable (or inevitabar as Whammies says). I'll have to find the thread to see which show it was. I'll let you know. /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
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