I'm not a fan of self help books. Believe, in helping myself period. Have read a few, just to get others views on topics, which opinions I do enjoy. There is almost another view point, I did not think of.

The differences between men and women, I think is the attraction.

I get on my own nerves, could not be in a relationship with someone like myself.

What would I learn and how would I grow.

Yeah - I couldn't be married to me, either. First off - wrong parts. But other than that - I am a huge pain in the a$$.

Yeah - there's that whole Mars Venus thing. While I am not a fan of popular self-help literature that gives pat answers, I do think that our biological imperatives are not the same. Men - hunt, provide, perpetuate the species. Women - nurture and raise the offspring in a manner that allows them to grow to maturity.Therefore, our minds and instincts are quite different from one another. Never is that more apparent than on the fourth of July when every man wants to play with fire (Thag make fire) and blow $hit up, while women sit and worry that the kids are too close to be safe and that the home is in jeopardy.

Just spices up the relationship, in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of self help books. Believe, in helping myself period. Have read a few, just to get others views on topics, which opinions I do enjoy. There is almost another view point, I did not think of.

The differences between men and women, I think is the attraction.

I get on my own nerves, could not be in a relationship with someone like myself.

What would I learn and how would I grow.

Yeah - there's that whole Mars Venus thing. While I am not a fan of popular self-help literature that gives pat answers, I do think that our biological imperatives are not the same. Men - hunt, provide, perpetuate the species. Women - nurture and raise the offspring in a manner that allows them to grow to maturity.Therefore, our minds and instincts are quite different from one another. Never is that more apparent than on the fourth of July when every man wants to play with fire (Thag make fire) and blow $hit up, while women sit and worry that the kids are too close to be safe and that the home is in jeopardy.

Just spices up the relationship, in my opinion.

Just another example of how evolution through natural selection is obvious.

Mostly, on the whole, I find women "difficult." Course if you ask them about me . . .

Yeah - there's that whole Mars Venus thing. While I am not a fan of popular self-help literature that gives pat answers, I do think that our biological imperatives are not the same. Men - hunt, provide, perpetuate the species. Women - nurture and raise the offspring in a manner that allows them to grow to maturity.Therefore, our minds and instincts are quite different from one another. Never is that more apparent than on the fourth of July when every man wants to play with fire (Thag make fire) and blow $hit up, while women sit and worry that the kids are too close to be safe and that the home is in jeopardy.

Just spices up the relationship, in my opinion.

I meant wise answer to the wife. We set those little traps, you know. Most of the time, the best answer is a non-answer.

Jim doesn't respond in that way. If I set a trap, he responds honestly and then if I get upset says, "You didn't want me to blow smoke up your a$$ did you? I have way more respect for your intelligence than that," or some such variation. Shuts me right up. But it keeps the game playing that is the natural result of feminine wiles at a minimum. He's probably the only man in the world who actually has a bead on how to be married to me and in a happy relationship. I can be somewhat "difficult," as he'll tell you. Good thing I found him.

Mostly, on the whole, I find women "difficult." Course if you ask them about me . . .

You've challenged me now, haven't you? Maybe the chum is tantalizing. Perhaps not, we'll see.

I meant wise answer to the wife. We set those little traps, you know. Most of the time, the best answer is a non-answer.

Jim doesn't respond in that way. If I set a trap, he responds honestly and then if I get upset says, "You didn't want me to blow smoke up your a$$ did you? I have way more respect for your intelligence than that," or some such variation. Shuts me right up. But it keeps the game playing that is the natural result of feminine wiles at a minimum. He's probably the only man in the world who actually has a bead on how to be married to me and in a happy relationship. I can be somewhat "difficult," as he'll tell you. Good thing I found him.

Wise choice.

You've challenged me now, haven't you? Maybe the chum is tantalizing. Perhaps not, we'll see.

Arriving home after the fireworks tonight, Mrs. Dawkins Dos put a DVD in the player, suggested to her stepchildren this was a good movie, poured herself a glass of white wine, and visited me in my cave. She asked me what might have happened had we not met. My answers might have been infinite, which would reveal my opinion as to the theme of this thread. I chose to say "We are here," patting the couch next to me.

This is all I have to say on this subject.

Wise choice.

This is all I have to say on this subject.

We went for a combination of small stuff for the kids to light, and massive artillery shells for the big kid. Karen is already into the last bottle of tequila, and the campfire is going for the wienies and smores. /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

On a serious note, when I say that control, like most other things, is an illusion, I mean that we still have to function in this framework. It's like seeing a brick wall as a solid object. There's nothing really solid about it, except that the fields of all those quantum particles interlock with a stronger force than the particles that make up our hands. It looks solid, because it consistently reflects photons back to our eyes, and it feels solid because the valence electrons push against the electrons in our fingertips, but on a purely physical level, it's well over 99.99999% empty space. We have to live with the solution that it is solid, because that is what we see, and it will hurt if we smack our heads against it.

We have to function with the idea that we are responsible for our actions, because society couldn't function without that construct in place. And really, even if we have no direct control over the quantum functions that form our neural pathways, we put those pathways there in the first place.

Well - I tried this with Jim this afternoon:

"If I am predetermined to do things, then you can't get mad at me when I'm a big beeeyatch. It's predetermined. It's my chemistry. It's who I am."

Sadly, he is quicker than I. "Yes - but I'm predetermined to get mad."

It was a good try though.

But most everybody I know is ignorant about that future, predetermined or not, and that is good enough for me.

The bigger the better! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Now, the next question after that is...where do they sell fireworks in California? I got a hankering for making something go boom boom. /ohmy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

We went for a combination of small stuff for the kids to light, and massive artillery shells for the big kid. Karen is already into the last bottle of tequila, and the campfire is going for the wienies and smores. /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

On a serious note, when I say that control, like most other things, is an illusion, I mean that we still have to function in this framework. It's like seeing a brick wall as a solid object. There's nothing really solid about it, except that the fields of all those quantum particles interlock with a stronger force than the particles that make up our hands. It looks solid, because it consistently reflects photons back to our eyes, and it feels solid because the valence electrons push against the electrons in our fingertips, but on a purely physical level, it's well over 99.99999% empty space. We have to live with the solution that it is solid, because that is what we see, and it will hurt if we smack our heads against it.

We have to function with the idea that we are responsible for our actions, because society couldn't function without that construct in place. And really, even if we have no direct control over the quantum functions that form our neural pathways, we put those pathways there in the first place.

No, I'm saying that control, just like pretty much everything else, is an illusion. There's always some doink who says, "if I have no control over anything, then nothing is ever my fault". You still have control, in the sense that your brain determines what the rest of your body does. What your brain determines is based on the exact quantum position, momentum, and spin of all the vast million of billions of trillions of particles that form it. Your brain is a learning system, so it actually forms as you continue on with your life. What you experience shapes your mind. When it doesn't function within specified norms, we say a person is insane. We are still the sum of our experiences, as filtered through the quagmire of human DNA. When the mechanism gets out of whack, well...

Here's an example scenario: You get awakened in the middle of the night, by a noise in your kitchen that is not your children or significant other making a sandwich. You grab the pistol you keep in the bedside table drawer, and creep into the kitchen to investigate, pistol pointed straight ahead. As you come into the kitchen, you find a scraggly looking man who smells like dog urine rifling through your junk drawer (everybody has one). You flip the lights on, startling the crap out of him, and he turns towards you, obviously shaken by your sudden appearance.

At this point, what is most likely running through your mind is a mishmash of the following; "This guy is robbing me", "this guy might try to hurt me", "I should call the police", "if he so much as twitches in my direction I will shoot", "can I legally shoot him in self-defense?", etc. somewhere in the back of your mind will be "it's wrong to kill", but fear will probably be keeping that thought at bay. Whether or not you pull the trigger will be determined by which of the pathways forming those thoughts is the strongest at the moment, and that will be determined in part by how much adrenaline is now coursing through your bloodstream. All of the experiences you've ever had that were strong enough to shape your brain will now be in play. A guy that has been robbed and beaten before might pull the trigger without hesitation, whereas a guy who has never had anything bad happen to him might just stand there.

My point is, under the same exact circumstances, the same person is going to make the same decision, because the underlying quantum processes would still be running the show. That doesn't make people any less responsible for their actions, it just makes them who they are. If a person does things they know they shouldn't, then they are a bad person. It may not be entirely their fault that they are that way, but if they lack the ability to change for their own good, then they are insane by definition.

As for "predeterminism" taking all the fun out of life by removing chance and free will, how can that be true when nobody can tell what the initial conditions are with enough resolution to determine the outcome? Just because the outcome of any situation is fixed, doesn't mean we know what it will be with any certainty. Since it is currently well beyond our ability to know, it really just becomes a question of philosophy.

I'm gonna hop down off the soapbox now and go buy the kids some fireworks.

But most everybody I know is ignorant about that future, predetermined or not, and that is good enough for me.

Now, the next question is ... are you predetermined to buy the big rocket fireworks, or the small sparklers??? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

The bigger the better! /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Now, the next question after that is...where do they sell fireworks in California? I got a hankering for making something go boom boom. /ohmy.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' />

No, I'm saying that control, just like pretty much everything else, is an illusion. There's always some doink who says, "if I have no control over anything, then nothing is ever my fault". You still have control, in the sense that your brain determines what the rest of your body does. What your brain determines is based on the exact quantum position, momentum, and spin of all the vast million of billions of trillions of particles that form it. Your brain is a learning system, so it actually forms as you continue on with your life. What you experience shapes your mind. When it doesn't function within specified norms, we say a person is insane. We are still the sum of our experiences, as filtered through the quagmire of human DNA. When the mechanism gets out of whack, well...

Here's an example scenario: You get awakened in the middle of the night, by a noise in your kitchen that is not your children or significant other making a sandwich. You grab the pistol you keep in the bedside table drawer, and creep into the kitchen to investigate, pistol pointed straight ahead. As you come into the kitchen, you find a scraggly looking man who smells like dog urine rifling through your junk drawer (everybody has one). You flip the lights on, startling the crap out of him, and he turns towards you, obviously shaken by your sudden appearance.

At this point, what is most likely running through your mind is a mishmash of the following; "This guy is robbing me", "this guy might try to hurt me", "I should call the police", "if he so much as twitches in my direction I will shoot", "can I legally shoot him in self-defense?", etc. somewhere in the back of your mind will be "it's wrong to kill", but fear will probably be keeping that thought at bay. Whether or not you pull the trigger will be determined by which of the pathways forming those thoughts is the strongest at the moment, and that will be determined in part by how much adrenaline is now coursing through your bloodstream. All of the experiences you've ever had that were strong enough to shape your brain will now be in play. A guy that has been robbed and beaten before might pull the trigger without hesitation, whereas a guy who has never had anything bad happen to him might just stand there.

My point is, under the same exact circumstances, the same person is going to make the same decision, because the underlying quantum processes would still be running the show. That doesn't make people any less responsible for their actions, it just makes them who they are. If a person does things they know they shouldn't, then they are a bad person. It may not be entirely their fault that they are that way, but if they lack the ability to change for their own good, then they are insane by definition.

As for "predeterminism" taking all the fun out of life by removing chance and free will, how can that be true when nobody can tell what the initial conditions are with enough resolution to determine the outcome? Just because the outcome of any situation is fixed, doesn't mean we know what it will be with any certainty. Since it is currently well beyond our ability to know, it really just becomes a question of philosophy.

I'm gonna hop down off the soapbox now and go buy the kids some fireworks.

Now, the next question is ... are you predetermined to buy the big, rocket fireworks or the small sparklers??? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' />

Nobody from our family has EVER told you not to sweat the small stuff....never...../laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' />

/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

So, you're saying, stop sweating the little things! /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' />

No, I'm saying that control, just like pretty much everything else, is an illusion. There's always some doink who says, "if I have no control over anything, then nothing is ever my fault". You still have control, in the sense that your brain determines what the rest of your body does. What your brain determines is based on the exact quantum position, momentum, and spin of all the vast million of billions of trillions of particles that form it. Your brain is a learning system, so it actually forms as you continue on with your life. What you experience shapes your mind. When it doesn't function within specified norms, we say a person is insane. We are still the sum of our experiences, as filtered through the quagmire of human DNA. When the mechanism gets out of whack, well...

Here's an example scenario: You get awakened in the middle of the night, by a noise in your kitchen that is not your children or significant other making a sandwich. You grab the pistol you keep in the bedside table drawer, and creep into the kitchen to investigate, pistol pointed straight ahead. As you come into the kitchen, you find a scraggly looking man who smells like dog urine rifling through your junk drawer (everybody has one). You flip the lights on, startling the crap out of him, and he turns towards you, obviously shaken by your sudden appearance.

At this point, what is most likely running through your mind is a mishmash of the following; "This guy is robbing me", "this guy might try to hurt me", "I should call the police", "if he so much as twitches in my direction I will shoot", "can I legally shoot him in self-defense?", etc. somewhere in the back of your mind will be "it's wrong to kill", but fear will probably be keeping that thought at bay. Whether or not you pull the trigger will be determined by which of the pathways forming those thoughts is the strongest at the moment, and that will be determined in part by how much adrenaline is now coursing through your bloodstream. All of the experiences you've ever had that were strong enough to shape your brain will now be in play. A guy that has been robbed and beaten before might pull the trigger without hesitation, whereas a guy who has never had anything bad happen to him might just stand there.

My point is, under the same exact circumstances, the same person is going to make the same decision, because the underlying quantum processes would still be running the show. That doesn't make people any less responsible for their actions, it just makes them who they are. If a person does things they know they shouldn't, then they are a bad person. It may not be entirely their fault that they are that way, but if they lack the ability to change for their own good, then they are insane by definition.

As for "predeterminism" taking all the fun out of life by removing chance and free will, how can that be true when nobody can tell what the initial conditions are with enough resolution to determine the outcome? Just because the outcome of any situation is fixed, doesn't mean we know what it will be with any certainty. Since it is currently well beyond our ability to know, it really just becomes a question of philosophy.

I'm gonna hop down off the soapbox now and go buy the kids some fireworks.