Used to work in a building surrounded by high tension wires. A few cases of cancer among the employees occurred. Rumors about the electrical wires causing the illnesses swirled. The employer called in someone to take readings or what have you. The findings claimed that no ill effects were being caused by the wires.

I am inclined to think that EMF can cause feelings of apprehension,etc., due to personal experiences. I have no proof of it though.

There have been several cases where building occupants or employees have received rather sizable class action settlements because it was constructed on top of a landfill, toxic waste dump or had high levels of friable asbestos etc., even if they were not (yet) stricken with cancer as the result of the exposure...

If continuing research proves the high wires to be a health hazard you may be eligible for a retroactive settlement /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> ....b

In a manner of speaking...yes. Speed of a program's execution is limited only by software parameters and hardware limits. As computers advanced in the PC/XT/AT days, their attempt at software compatibility with increased clock speeds was the venerable "turbo" button. It would decrease the 15/20/25mhz signal to 5 or 8mhz for speed compatibility. An example of this was early versions of MS flight simulator that ran perfectly on my old 286xt clone were too fast to control when I when I upgraded to an AT clone. This became evident later in Windows environments when trying to run dos-based programs. Although Windows did a fair amount of good emulation, speeds were always messed up. This is still evident today if you want to run any classic programs, you have to load an emulator. They still have difficulty getting the speeds right, which tells me that if a program was designed for a certain range of clock speeds, without a satisfactory calibration or emulation program, they will run faster or not at all. It would appear that since the program was authored by Koren, it was probably specifically designed for a single platform at a single clock speed...he could (and did) author a calibration program for other machines at differing speeds.

I had a flight simulator for my 286 as well... and I do in fact recollect complications with conflicting speeds when I attempted to run theses older programs on newer PCs now that you mention it....

As I understand it, the calibration program was never provided as Granqvist ceased communication with Persinger and Koren after requesting the software. The version numbers provided there do not make sense, I will concede that, but I believe it was a typo by the author. The main point that I gleaned from that was that if Granqvist had maintained communication, the calibration program would have been sent to him for use with his replication of the experiment.

The software versions listed were likely a typo, but there seemed to be a degree of either competition or animosity between the two camps and this did not strike me as a collaborative effort ...

I agree that there needs to me more research done to bridge the gap between these experiments and possible everyday exposures to these weak em fields, but these experiments are, at least to me, proof-of-concept. The most common problem I see though, is that many people are often too quick to throw out "emf sensitivity" as causation for all sorts of phenomenon deemed paranormal.

As I mentioned above, I would come off my belief of proof of concept if proven wrong, but only if both parties (or an individual party that would replicate it as it was originally done) would agree to protocol and replicate the original experiments. We shall see if it ever happens. I hope it does.

Andy

There appears to be sufficient data to support another attempt at replication and perhaps even a restructured and updated experiment ...

As far as EMF being another default explanation for those that embrace the debunk culture, unfortunately I feel that nothing will change this type of linear thinking for some...

To be fair, one of the stronger cases of a "sensed presence" I have personally experienced to date was almost directly beneath a newly installed row of multiple main phase conduit pipes... I have had similar sensations where no electricity (above ground) was visibly present but that is not to say that a supernatural explanation is the only other plausible possibility ...

-barek-

I am inclined to think that EMF can cause feelings of apprehension,etc., due to personal experiences. I have no proof of it though.

Because the Pentium chip is capable of those speeds does this mean that it will execute a program intended for a DOS based 286 to run at an accelerated rate? what about running it in a DOS shell or changing the machine speed? ...this would imply that if you played Blackjack designed for a 286 on a Pentium Pro, the cards would automatically be dealt 10 times too fast...

In a manner of speaking...yes. Speed of a program's execution is limited only by software parameters and hardware limits. As computers advanced in the PC/XT/AT days, their attempt at software compatibility with increased clock speeds was the venerable "turbo" button. It would decrease the 15/20/25mhz signal to 5 or 8mhz for speed compatibility. An example of this was early versions of MS flight simulator that ran perfectly on my old 286xt clone were too fast to control when I when I upgraded to an AT clone. This became evident later in Windows environments when trying to run dos-based programs. Although Windows did a fair amount of good emulation, speeds were always messed up. This is still evident today if you want to run any classic programs, you have to load an emulator. They still have difficulty getting the speeds right, which tells me that if a program was designed for a certain range of clock speeds, without a satisfactory calibration or emulation program, they will run faster or not at all. It would appear that since the program was authored by Koren, it was probably specifically designed for a single platform at a single clock speed...he could (and did) author a calibration program for other machines at differing speeds.

So even with the incorrect version of the (windows based) calibration program it still ran 10 times too fast?

As I understand it, the calibration program was never provided as Granqvist ceased communication with Persinger and Koren after requesting the software. The version numbers provided there do not make sense, I will concede that, but I believe it was a typo by the author. The main point that I gleaned from that was that if Granqvist had maintained communication, the calibration program would have been sent to him for use with his replication of the experiment.

That 5 minutes must make all the difference in the world and I have to wonder how often we would be exposed to a frequency-modulated pattern (tailored after a "chirp" sequence from standard signal generators) and directly applied over the right hemisphere for 20 minute concentrations in an acoustically isolated apparatus in an average environment where the majority of "sensed presences" are reported?...

I agree that there needs to me more research done to bridge the gap between these experiments and possible everyday exposures to these weak em fields, but these experiments are, at least to me, proof-of-concept. The most common problem I see though, is that many people are often too quick to throw out "emf sensitivity" as causation for all sorts of phenomenon deemed paranormal.

As I mentioned above, I would come off my belief of proof of concept if proven wrong, but only if both parties (or an individual party that would replicate it as it was originally done) would agree to protocol and replicate the original experiments. We shall see if it ever happens. I hope it does.

Andy

I'm going to address one link at a time and I'll start with this one:

http://www.shaktitechnology.co.....singer.htm

(unfortunately all of the "source" URLs at this site are no longer active so it is difficult to cross reference some of it)...

Regardless, this is some interesting stuff but I do have to question some of Persinger's objections to Granqvist's attempts at duplication ...again this is based on what I have gleaned from ONE link thus far. and while I do not dismiss any of this, I do have issues with some of it ...

Granqvist reported using a Pentuim PRO PC, which would give it a processor speed between 166 and 200mhz. Granqvist's version of COMPLEX was written for the 286 series, with processor speeds close to 10 mhz. Pehr Granqvist ran his signals around ten times too fast.

Because the Pentium chip is capable of those speeds does this mean that it will execute a program intended for a DOS based 286 to run at an accelerated rate? what about running it in a DOS shell or changing the machine speed? ...this would imply that if you played Blackjack designed for a 286 on a Pentium Pro, the cards would automatically be dealt 10 times too fast...

The software Granqvist used was provided by Persinger and Koren, but it required either a calibration program or a 286 PC. Stan Koren, technician for persinger's group, authored a calibration program which went into use shortly after the need for it was discovered (V. 1.4). Granqvist cannot be blamed because the bug wasn't found until after he was provided with the software (V. 1.15). He would have been sent another version had he stayed in touch.

So even with the incorrect version of the (windows based) calibration program it still ran 10 times too fast?

Another point related to the software used in Persinger's lab is that it cannot be run under windows. Persinger's hardware connects to a PC through the LPT port (the printer port). Windows adds significant noise to the printer port's output - enough that it will "disconfigure the temporal patterns of the applied magnetic fields." Here's the reference for the paper that reported disruption of the signals under windows (4) The Granqvist paper mentioned that the PC used in his experiment was running windows 95. COMPLEX is a DOS program, and it doesn't work properly under Windows.

An LPT or parallel printer port was still standard at the height of the Windows 95 era and again, the link to the "reference" outlining the reported disruption of the signals under a Windows OS is inoperative ...

"The experiences were most easily evoked if a frequency-modulated pattern (tailored after a "chirp" sequence from standard signal generators) was applied over the right hemisphere for 20 minutes and then a bilateral burst-firing pattern (designed after the discharge of amygdaloid neurons... ) was applied bilaterally over the temporal lobes for an additional 20 minutes note. These experiences occurred with equal vigor in dozens of reporters accompanying television film crews who have visited the laboratory during the last 10 years. The sensitivity of the functions of the right hemisphere to complex magnetic fields even within the picotesla range has been shown repeatedly by Sandyk.8"

In contrast, Granqvist applied the signals for only 15 minutes in each of the two phases. Even if he had used the calibration program, the shorter sessions make 'the sensed presence' and other similar experiences less likely. The difference of 5 minutes amounts to a 25% reduction in the length of the session, quite enough to eliminate reports from less-sensitive people, and influence the outcome of the experiment.

That 5 minutes must make all the difference in the world and I have to wonder how often we would be exposed to a frequency-modulated pattern (tailored after a "chirp" sequence from standard signal generators) and directly applied over the right hemisphere for 20 minute concentrations in an acoustically isolated apparatus in an average environment where the majority of "sensed presences" are reported?...

Another point worth noting is that Persinger used an acoustic chamber, while Granqvist used an "isolation" chamber. A significant portion of the temporal lobes activity is given over to monitoring ambient sound. The silence achieved in a proper acoustic chamber helps in eliciting the phenomena Persinger is known for, and it's replacement by a quiet isolation chamber deprives the sessions of true silence. This factor, while by no means decisive in Granqvist's failure to replicate Persinger's results, can reduce the number of experiences reported, as optimal conditions for the less-sensitive subjects are no longer present.

Again, this seems like some pretty rigid conditions must be present and an extremely stringent and precise criteria must be met for the EMF to considered as a contributory factor to an alleged "sensed presence" and I have to reiterate the question of how often in normal, everyday environments would someone be exposed to these neural impulse simulating signals under similar circumstances?...

Granqvist is mistaken that Persinger's results are due to suggestion. In Persinger's experiments " ... the subjects were not aware of their experimental conditions and experimenters were not familiar with the hypotheses being tested or both were not aware of the experimental condition. Subjects were randomly or serially allocated to conditions. The person generating the hypothesis never had direct contact with the subjects."source Further, Persinger's results include cases where an experiment found one signal pleasant when applied over the right hemisphere 10, and a different signal more pleasant over the left. This precludes suggestibility as an explanation. In order for a researcher to get such reports through suggestability, they would have to plant very specific suggestions informing the subjects of the expected outcome. These results cannot be explained as suggestability except by recourse to accusations of fakery or an abandonment of sound procedure.

I don't know, sometimes "suggestion" can be non verball /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Granqvist's subjects were told that the experiment "was about the influence of complex, weak magnetic fields on experiences and feeling states". Persinger's subjects are told they are participating in an experiment concerning relaxation. If anything, Persinger's procedures are more 'blind' than Granqvist's.

This should not preclude that Granqvist's subjects were aware of the nature of the EMF conjecture being tested because

His subjects were undergraduate theology and psychology students and therefore would have been more prone to this suggestion or because of the visible inclusion of an EEG monitor...

and finally ...

In addition to the studies that demonstrate hemispheric effects, there are also studies published reporting significant after-effects. In two studies,(4,6) Persinger and Baker-Price found lasting after-effects (a reduction in depression caused by closed head injuries). At this time of writing, similar results are being obtained with clinical depression in Texas. Follow-up for these studies lasted six weeks past the series of sessions. Subjects reported a reduction in depression and phobias. A result that can't be explained through suggestion.

If I am understanding this last part correctly there are some serious logic flaws with this implied correlation but perhaps it is simply not worded correctly, again all of the source links are broken at that site now ...

on to the next one /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> ...b

I would think that electricians and power plant employees that are constantly exposed to unshielded transformers and rectifiers would be seeing shadow entities/ghosts on a daily basis if this were the case ...I would further think the IBEW apprenticeship would include this as an aspect of the curriculum especially since apprentices surely would not have had the opportunity to build up a "tolerance" to this alleged adversity and occupational hazard (imho) ...

I agree, and don't think that there is enough data at this time to correlate between constant brain stimulation by low power fields (as in Persinger's experiments) and similarities occurring in the everyday world. I simply take that the possibility exists on faith in absence of data at this time. I also can't help but wonder how the intensity or power of a field has on the perceived phenomena regardless of frequency. I think in the paratainment world EMF sensitivity is a great sounding catch-all for explaining perceived phenomena when the rest of the investigation comes up dry. I agree that it is a crutch too often used for the benefit of the television cameras.

my desire to learn and grow outweighs my aversion to the potential of suffering a bruised ego as the result of an internet debate

Agree totally, perhaps a collaboration on this issue by Granqvist and Persinger could settle the "sensed presence" debate, but I fear they are now set in their adversarial roles, so it will likely come from an independent researcher. I know I would be very interested in the findings.

From Jilla08:

The cause of motion sickness is also JUST a theory, despite people(myself included) experiencing it on a regular basis with no actual known cause that science can point to. Only a hypothesis that hasn't been able to be completely proven- but also points to an outside disturbance effecting the brain making people sensitive to it experience things that aren't really happening.

The two do seem very similar and quite probably related.

Regards

Andy

With the "fear cage" theory, people claim to feel uneasy and have paranoia/hallucinations caused by the high ELF stimulation on the brain- or at the very least some outside disturbance effecting the brain making people sensitive to it experience things that aren't really there.

The cause of motion sickness is also JUST a theory, despite people(myself included) experiencing it on a regular basis with no actual known cause that science can point to. Only a hypothesis that hasn't been able to be completely proven- but also points to an outside disturbance effecting the brain making people sensitive to it experience things that aren't really happening.

http://www.medicinenet.com/mot.....rticle.htm

There is a difference between long exposure to ELF waves, and short exposures to VHF/UHF/SHF/microwave frequencies. Most of the examples listed above deal with RF exposure outside of the ELF range. What prolonged exposure to such frequencies would do to a person, I would not be familiar with (with exception of UHF/SHF/microwave, that is pretty self-explanitory), but these are not comparable to Persinger's studies of ELF/brain stimulation...

I know, but again I even admitted I have not thoroughly reviewed Persinger's studies ...but I have to question the similarity of long exposure to ELF in realistic everyday environment and those evidently administered as the result of direct stimulation as part of Persinger's studies ... the predominate consensus in the scientific community seems to be that the conditions of his experiments were inherently flawed and therefore in some cases reproduction was attempted absent of whatever factors many felt negated his results as legitimate etc...

and as I have questioned in the past:

I would think that electricians and power plant employees that are constantly exposed to unshielded transformers and rectifiers would be seeing shadow entities/ghosts on a daily basis if this were the case ...I would further think the IBEW apprenticeship would include this as an aspect of the curriculum especially since apprentices surely would not have had the opportunity to build up a "tolerance" to this alleged adversity and occupational hazard (imho) ...

As far as reproduction of Persinger's experiments, if they were done in accordance with the originals, I would find them more acceptable...

and they were not? and if so why?

*edit: I missed this part...

Persinger, however, takes issue with the Swedish attempts to replicate his work. "They didn't replicate it, not even close," he says. He argues that the Swedish group did not expose the subjects to magnetic fields for long enough to produce an effect.

http://www.shaktitechnology.co.....singer.htm

http://www.nature.com/news/200.....041206/ful...s041206-10.html

I guess the definitive test would be both Persinger and Granqvist conducting the experiments in the same labs, with same subjects using the same double-blind protocols. I am not so rigid as to abandon a thought process when confronted with evidence to the contrary, but Granqvist's attempt at replication is far from it.

Regards,

Andy

thanks Andy /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> since you seem to have your ducks in a row on this issue, I'll afford review of the links you provided some time as I my desire to learn and grow outweighs my aversion to the potential of suffering a bruised ego as the result of an internet debate /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> ..

there seems to be Persinger "haters" out there for legitimate reasons ...his conclusions cannot repeated or duplicated outside of his censored control ...

It is not accepted it the medical or scientific community period, in fact it is common knowledge that when subjected to faux EMF fields many that claimed to still be experiencing a "sensed presence like a placebo effect...

the tenets of scientific research dictates research that what cannot be verified or reproduced in a clinical environment are not accepted nor should it be ...

http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....onworld/na...0,2528354.story

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu.....d/20075020

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....ctromagnet...ypersensitivity

there are plenty out there that claim "studies"conducted with their EMF "ghost meters" in conjunction with other useless gadgetry based on para-TV proves that EMF is indicative of supernatural activity ...this is all theory and conjecture and there is not one shred of quantifiable evidence to back it ...

I'll look into Dr. M.A. Persinger and Todd Murphy as time permits and dissect them accordingly...

cheers /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

-barek-

There is a difference between long exposure to ELF waves, and short exposures to VHF/UHF/SHF/microwave frequencies. Most of the examples listed above deal with RF exposure outside of the ELF range. What prolonged exposure to such frequencies would do to a person, I would not be familiar with (with exception of UHF/SHF/microwave, that is pretty self-explanitory), but these are not comparable to Persinger's studies of ELF/brain stimulation...

As far as reproduction of Persinger's experiments, if they were done in accordance with the originals, I would find them more acceptable...

In contrast, Granqvist applied the signals for only 15 minutes in each of the two phases. Even if he had used the calibration program, the shorter sessions make 'the sensed presence' and other similar experiences less likely. The difference of 5 minutes amounts to a 25% reduction in the length of the session, quite enough to eliminate reports from less-sensitive people, and influence the outcome of the experiment.

The software Granqvist used was provided by Persinger and Koren, but it required either a calibration program or a 286 PC. Stan Koren, technician for persinger's group, authored a calibration program which went into use shortly after the need for it was discovered (V. 1.4). Granqvist cannot be blamed because the bug wasn't found until after he was provided with the software (V. 1.15). He would have been sent another version had he stayed in touch.

Granqvist reported using a Pentuim PRO PC, which would give it a processor speed between 166 and 200mhz. Granqvist's version of COMPLEX was written for the 286 series, with processor speeds close to 10 mhz. Pehr Granqvist ran his signals around ten times too fast.

If you tell a research subject that they're helping to study the 'influence' of 'magnetic fields' on 'feeling states', and then walk them through a room with an EEG in it, you'll have presented a suggestion - that they're going to experience neural stimulation. The subjects were given two cues about the nature of the experiment, one verbal (the experiment "was about the influence of complex, weak magnetic fields on experiences and feeling states"), and one visual (the EEG machine). It's not surprising that Granqvist's results correlated with suggestibility. The field configuration his subjects received was so distorted that the principle effects had no chance of appearing.

http://www.shaktitechnology.co.....singer.htm

Persinger, however, takes issue with the Swedish attempts to replicate his work. "They didn't replicate it, not even close," he says. He argues that the Swedish group did not expose the subjects to magnetic fields for long enough to produce an effect.

http://www.nature.com/news/200.....041206/ful...s041206-10.html

I guess the definitive test would be both Persinger and Granqvist conducting the experiments in the same labs, with same subjects using the same double-blind protocols. I am not so rigid as to abandon a thought process when confronted with evidence to the contrary, but Granqvist's attempt at replication is far from it.

Regards,

Andy

The studies of Dr. M.A. Persinger's would suggest otherwise. Stimulating differing regions of the brain with ELF em waves and the introduction of a "sensed presence" seems in line with the fear cage phenomena. There are many interviews, articles, and videos featuring Persinger and his research.

I am aware of all the Persinger "haters" out there that say they cannot duplicate his findings, but they have not faithfully recreated his experiments either. They change the parameters of the experiments and call foul on his findings. Even Todd Murphy, a behavioral neuroscientist, has done extensive work using Persinger's findings.

regards,

Andy

there seems to be Persinger "haters" out there for legitimate reasons ...his conclusions cannot repeated or duplicated outside of his censored control ...

It is not accepted it the medical or scientific community period, in fact it is common knowledge that when subjected to faux EMF fields many that claimed to still be experiencing a "sensed presence like a placebo effect...

the tenets of scientific research dictates research that what cannot be verified or reproduced in a clinical environment are not accepted nor should it be ...

Mainstream scientists object to the notion that microwaves and radio waves emitted by consumer electronics could cause the reported health problems.

http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....onworld/na...0,2528354.story

BACKGROUND: "Airwave" is the new communication system currently being rolled out across the United Kingdom for the police and emergency services, based on the Terrestrial Trunked Radio Telecommunications System (TETRA). Some police officers have complained about skin rashes, nausea, headaches, and depression as a consequence of using their Airwave handsets. In addition, a small subgroup in the population self-report being sensitive to electromagnetic fields (EMFs) in general.

OBJECTIVES: We conducted a randomized double-blind provocation study to establish whether short-term exposure to a TETRA base station signal has an impact on the health and well-being of individuals with self-reported "electrosensitivity" and of participants who served as controls.

METHODS: Fifty-one individuals with self-reported electrosensitivity and 132 age- and sex-matched controls participated in an open provocation test; 48 sensitive and 132 control participants went on to complete double-blind tests in a fully screened semianechoic chamber. Heart rate, skin conductance, and blood pressure readings provided objective indices of short-term physiological response. Visual analog scales and symptom scales provided subjective indices of well-being.

RESULTS: We found no differences on any measure between TETRA and sham (no signal) under double-blind conditions for either controls or electrosensitive participants, and neither group could detect the presence of a TETRA signal at rates greater than chance (50%). When conditions were not double blind, however, the self-reported electrosensitive individuals did report feeling worse and experienced more severe symptoms during TETRA compared with sham.

CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that the adverse symptoms experienced by electrosensitive individuals are due to the belief of harm from TETRA base stations rather than to the low-level EMF exposure itself.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu.....d/20075020

The majority of provocation trials to date have found that self-described sufferers of electromagnetic hypersensitivity are unable to distinguish between exposure to real and sham electromagnetic fields, and it is not recognized as a medical condition by the medical or scientific community .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....ctromagnet...ypersensitivity

there are plenty out there that claim "studies"conducted with their EMF "ghost meters" in conjunction with other useless gadgetry based on para-TV proves that EMF is indicative of supernatural activity ...this is all theory and conjecture and there is not one shred of quantifiable evidence to back it ...

I'll look into Dr. M.A. Persinger and Todd Murphy as time permits and dissect them accordingly...

cheers /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

-barek-

I am aware of all the Persinger "haters" out there that say they cannot duplicate his findings, but they have not faithfully recreated his experiments either. They change the parameters of the experiments and call foul on his findings. Even Todd Murphy, a behavioral neuroscientist, has done extensive work using Persinger's findings.

regards,

Andy