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Of Ice Ages and such
May 4, 2009
9:00 pm PDT
sithy
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Don't they think this might just be the natural progression of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..009/04/29/…in4978510.shtml

(AP) Massive ice chunks are crumbling away from a shelf in the western Antarctic Peninsula, researchers said Wednesday, warning that 1,300 square miles of ice – an area larger than Rhode Island – was in danger of breaking off in coming weeks.

The Wilkins Ice Shelf had been stable for most of the last century, but began retreating in the 1990s. Researchers believe it was held in place by an ice bridge linking Charcot Island to the Antarctic mainland.

But the 127-square-mile bridge lost two large chunks last year and then shattered completely on April 5.

"As a consequence of the collapse, the rifts, which had already featured along the northern ice front, widened and new cracks formed as the ice adjusted," the European Space Agency said in a statement Wednesday on its Web site, citing new satellite images.

The first icebergs broke away on Friday, and since then some 270 square miles of ice have dropped into the sea, according to the satellite data.

"There is little doubt that these changes are the result of atmospheric warming," said David Vaughan of the British Antarctic Survey.

The falling away of Antarctic ice shelves does not, in itself, raise sea levels, since the ice was already floating in the sea. But such coastal tables of ice usually hold back glaciers, and when they disintegrate that land ice will often flow more quickly into the sea, contributing to sea-level rise.

Researchers said the quality and frequency of the ESA satellite images have allowed them to analyze the Wilkins shelf breakup far more effectively than any previous event.

"For the first time, I think, we can really begin to see the processes that have brought about the demise of the ice shelf," Vaughan said.

He said eight ice shelves along the Antarctic Peninsula have shown signs of retreat over the last few decades.

"The retreat of Wilkins Ice Shelf is the latest and the largest of its kind," he said.

The Wilkins shelf, which is the size of Jamaica, lost 14 percent of its mass last year, according to scientists who are looking at whether global warming is the cause of its breakup.

Average temperatures in the Antarctic Peninsula have risen by 3.8 degrees Fahrenheit over the past 50 years – higher than the average global rise, according to studies.

Over the next several weeks, scientists estimate the Wilkins shelf will lose some 1,300 square miles – a piece larger than the state of Rhode Island, or two-thirds the size of Luxembourg.

One researcher said, however, that it was unclear how the situation would evolve.

"We are not sure if a new stable ice front will now form between Latady Island, Petrie Ice Rises and Dorsey Island," said Angelika Humbert of Germany's Muenster University Institute of Geophysics.

But even more ice could break off "if the connection to Latady Island is lost," she said, "though we have no indication that this will happen in the near future."

Man comes along and develops to a point technologically where he is affecting the Earth's environment through the, so called, Green House affect. This in turn melts the ice caps which flood us pesky humans out, leaving only a few, and the process starts all over again. Maybe the flood myth is not just one flood, but many throughout the ages.

I do believe the Earth goes through phases, and that any affect we might have is minimal at best.

May 5, 2009
5:10 pm PDT
MysticalKnight
California
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December 29, 2012
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Don't they think this might just be the natural progression of things.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..009/04/29/…in4978510.shtml

(AP) Massive ice chunks are crumbling away from a shelf in the western Antarctic Peninsula, researchers said Wednesday, warning that 1,300 square miles of ice – an area larger than Rhode Island – was in danger of breaking off in coming weeks.

The Wilkins Ice Shelf had been stable for most of the last century, but began retreating in the 1990s. Researchers believe it was held in place by an ice bridge linking Charcot Island to the Antarctic mainland.

But the 127-square-mile bridge lost two large chunks last year and then shattered completely on April 5.

"As a consequence of the collapse, the rifts, which had already featured along the northern ice front, widened and new cracks formed as the ice adjusted," the European Space Agency said in a statement Wednesday on its Web site, citing new satellite images.

The first icebergs broke away on Friday, and since then some 270 square miles of ice have dropped into the sea, according to the satellite data.

"There is little doubt that these changes are the result of atmospheric warming," said David Vaughan of the British Antarctic Survey.

The falling away of Antarctic ice shelves does not, in itself, raise sea levels, since the ice was already floating in the sea. But such coastal tables of ice usually hold back glaciers, and when they disintegrate that land ice will often flow more quickly into the sea, contributing to sea-level rise.

Researchers said the quality and frequency of the ESA satellite images have allowed them to analyze the Wilkins shelf breakup far more effectively than any previous event.

"For the first time, I think, we can really begin to see the processes that have brought about the demise of the ice shelf," Vaughan said.

He said eight ice shelves along the Antarctic Peninsula have shown signs of retreat over the last few decades.

"The retreat of Wilkins Ice Shelf is the latest and the largest of its kind," he said.

The Wilkins shelf, which is the size of Jamaica, lost 14 percent of its mass last year, according to scientists who are looking at whether global warming is the cause of its breakup.

Average temperatures in the Antarctic Peninsula have risen by 3.8 degrees Fahrenheit over the past 50 years – higher than the average global rise, according to studies.

Over the next several weeks, scientists estimate the Wilkins shelf will lose some 1,300 square miles – a piece larger than the state of Rhode Island, or two-thirds the size of Luxembourg.

One researcher said, however, that it was unclear how the situation would evolve.

"We are not sure if a new stable ice front will now form between Latady Island, Petrie Ice Rises and Dorsey Island," said Angelika Humbert of Germany's Muenster University Institute of Geophysics.

But even more ice could break off "if the connection to Latady Island is lost," she said, "though we have no indication that this will happen in the near future."

Man comes along and develops to a point technologically where he is affecting the Earth's environment through the, so called, Green House affect. This in turn melts the ice caps which flood us pesky humans out, leaving only a few, and the process starts all over again. Maybe the flood myth is not just one flood, but many throughout the ages.

I do believe the Earth goes through phases, and that any affect we might have is minimal at best.

Very interesting! It does make me wonder …

Fairy.jpg
May 5, 2009
5:21 pm PDT
NoWhammies
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I have to say – I think we may have a slight effect on global warming, but that we are also in a naturally occurring pattern. It is combining to make the perfect storm.

But yes – nature has patterns. We are extremely arrogant to believe that we can change the course of something as indomitable as the natural progression of our planet. I believe that we have a minor effect, and that nature is moving in a cycle, which has a major effect. Don't get me wrong. I get that we can bring about nuclear winter, etc….but our influence on weather patterns, while real, is maybe as severe as the Swine flu is turning out to be. My guess – the answer lies somewhere between Al Gore (who does good work – and I do believe that the environment needs some attention) and the people who deny global warming totally.

Just my two cents.

May 5, 2009
10:01 pm PDT
JDHarrison
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While I do believe that global warming is helping to speed up the melting process of the ice sheets, research HAS shown that there have been several ice ages throughout the last 100,000 years, but as of yet, no definate cycle to them has been proven. However, my main concern with all of this is the short circuiting of the Deep Ocean current that drives the weather patterns of the world. This current is salinity based (has a high concentration of salt water) which drives it as it circumnavigates the globe. If the salinity levels of this current become diluted by the melting of all of this fresh water ice, the current would "short circuit" and stop, causing massive storms around the world, and possibly bringing on another ice age. The results of this would devistate the world as we know it, as economies would be disrupted, food supplies would become limited, and many of those in nations that could not cope with the initial aftermass of the storms and subsequent consequences would perish. Cycle, Global warming, or whatever, the loss of the ice sheets at the rate they are occuring needs to be taken seriously by the powers that be. Who knows, it may already be too late.

Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been.- Jim Bishop
May 6, 2009
6:36 pm PDT
almosthunted
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Thsi may sound like a smart aleck question, JD, and I certainly don't mean it to be:

If the PTB do take a look at the polar ice situation – specifically what can/will THEY do to **** the process of melting?

Our planet is in a cycle, whether man-made, natural or a combination of both. The Powers That Be come up with the brilliant idea to put a GPS on my car and tax me for miles driven, gas consumption and carbon output. They want to put a so-called "smart" thermostat in my house to see how cool I am in the summer and how warm I am in the winter. Taxing the population will not change global temperatures.

In this case, education may go farther than taxation.

May 6, 2009
10:33 pm PDT
JDHarrison
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Thsi may sound like a smart aleck question, JD, and I certainly don't mean it to be:

If the PTB do take a look at the polar ice situation – specifically what can/will THEY do to **** the process of melting?

Our planet is in a cycle, whether man-made, natural or a combination of both. The Powers That Be come up with the brilliant idea to put a GPS on my car and tax me for miles driven, gas consumption and carbon output. They want to put a so-called "smart" thermostat in my house to see how cool I am in the summer and how warm I am in the winter. Taxing the population will not change global temperatures.

In this case, education may go farther than taxation.

Like I said Almosthunted, it may be too late. This is something that may have been able to be slowed down 20 years ago, but I think the damage is being done now, and while reducing the pollution and waist that we have so uncerimoniously dumped into the atmosphere and oceans of this planet without regard for anything other than ourselves would be a good thing, too little too late never helped anyone.

Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been.- Jim Bishop
May 7, 2009
5:01 pm PDT
Brad Berg
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April 23, 2009
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I have to say – I think we may have a slight effect on global warming, but that we are also in a naturally occurring pattern. It is combining to make the perfect storm.

But yes – nature has patterns. We are extremely arrogant to believe that we can change the course of something as indomitable as the natural progression of our planet. I believe that we have a minor effect, and that nature is moving in a cycle, which has a major effect. Don't get me wrong. I get that we can bring about nuclear winter, etc….but our influence on weather patterns, while real, is maybe as severe as the Swine flu is turning out to be. My guess – the answer lies somewhere between Al Gore (who does good work – and I do believe that the environment needs some attention) and the people who deny global warming totally.

Just my two cents.

I'm with you…it seems rather handy that many scientists whom are studying global warming have something to gain..IE: research grants. Other scientists have repeatedly stated that the Earth has gone through thousands of cycles of freezing and warming. I think that it's actually a little conceited of us to assume that just because we burned fossil fuels (granted, we burn ALOT!) that the planet is dying. There has been more than one ice age, and more than one period of warmth, and we are still here….***Checks mirror*** Yup, still here.

Global warming is real. Definitely. Is it completely caused by us? Not in my opinion.

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May 13, 2009
3:40 am PDT
norcalmonkey
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Isn't there accounts of great floods in almost all of the major ancient civilizations?

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SirusXm


May 13, 2009
1:45 pm PDT
Brad Berg
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Isn't there accounts of great floods in almost all of the major ancient civilizations?

Sure are. And they are now finding that the archaeological evidence is backing that up. There was pretty much a worldwide flood.

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May 13, 2009
10:33 pm PDT
JDHarrison
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Sure are. And they are now finding that the archaeological evidence is backing that up. There was pretty much a worldwide flood.

Not quite. The archaeological record shows evidence of a massive flood that occured approxiamtely 10,000 years ago in the area known as the cradle of civilization. This area encompasses today's nations of Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Northern Saudi Arabia. Known in ancient times as Mesopotamia, some of the very first known writings in the world occured in this area, and chronicled this event in a document known as "The Epic of Gilgamesh". It tells the tale of a man who was instructed by a Sumerian deity to build a boat to survive the destruction of the world by flood. Sound familiar? The archaeological record however, does show that a large flood event occured in this area, and ecompassed the entire region. One of the main theories on this event is that an ice dam that had been left by retreating glaciers ruptured, causing a massive flood. Remember, during this time there were no communications like we have today, and a person's perception of the world was the area that he lived in. They did not have knowledge of other continents or lands, and their idea of "world" was limited to the area they could travel. So in essence, a flood like this would have "covered the world". While the archaeological record does support a massive flood in this part of the world, to date there is no evidence to support the idea that a global flood ecompassed the entire world at some time in the distant past.

Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been.- Jim Bishop
May 14, 2009
2:08 am PDT
NoWhammies
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How large is "large"?

May 14, 2009
10:47 pm PDT
JDHarrison
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How large is "large"?

It covered the entire area known as Mesopotamia (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, The Black Sea, The Medditeranian, The Persian Gulf) Large.

Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been.- Jim Bishop
May 14, 2009
11:00 pm PDT
sithy
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Here's something of interest I found on Wikipedia. I had read of this before in another book on the subject.

I think the name of the book was "Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization" by Graham Hancock.

The lower Tigris-Euphrates Valley, reflooding the Persian Gulf (12,000 years ago)

Another type 1 theory. When sea levels were low, the combined Tigris-Euphrates river flowed through a wide flat marshy landscape. The Persian Gulf today has an average depth of only 35 m. During the most recent glaciation, which ended 12,000 years ago, worldwide sea levels dropped 120 to 130 m, leaving the bed of the Persian Gulf well above sea level during the glacial maximum. It had to have been a swampy freshwater floodplain, where water was retained in all the hollows. High in the Taurus Mountains glaciation would have been extensive.

The drainage of the combined glacial era Tigris-Euphrates made its way down the marshes of this proto-Shatt-al-Arab to the Strait of Hormuz into the Arabian Sea. Reports of the exploration ship "Meteor" have confirmed that the Persian Gulf was an entirely dry basin about 15,000 BC. Close to the steeper Iranian side a deep channel apparently marks the course of the ancient extended Shatt al-Arab, being called the "Ur-Schatt". A continuous shallow shelf across the top (north) of the Persian Gulf and down the west side (at 20 m) suggests that this section was the last to be inundated. At the Straits of Hormuz the bathymetric profile indicates a division into two main channels which continue across the Bieban Shelf before dropping to a depth of c 400 m in the Gulf of Oman; the deeper parts of these channels may be due to delta deposits at the edge of the deep ocean collapsing in a succession of big underwater landslides, causing underwater erosion by the resulting turbidity currents.

There is a theory that there was also a Black-Sea-type sill collapse at the Strait of Hormuz at the outlet of the Persian Gulf, so converting this case into type 3.

In a 1981 Journal of Cuneiform Studies article, "The Tangible Evidence for the Earliest Dilmun", Theresa Howard-Carter espoused her theory identifying Dilmun with Qurna, an island at the Strait of Hormuz. Her scenario put the original mouths of the Tigris-Euphrates rivers, which she thought should be the site of the primeval Dilmun, at or even beyond the Straits of Hormuz. Mainstream archaeologists have avoided mentioning her article for fear of its apparent catastrophism, an awkward subject in geology. Theresa Howard-Carter also wrote: "It is more likely that the original Persian Gulf inhabitants lived along the banks of the lower or extended Shatt al-Arab, ranging some 800 km across the dry Persian Gulf bed. We can thus postulate that the pre-Sumerian cultures had more than ample time to be born and flourish in a riverine setting, encouraged by the agricultural potential and the blessings of a temperate climate. The fact that the body of proof for the existence of these societies must now lie at the bottom of the Persian Gulf furnishes at least a temporary excuse for the archaeologist's failure to produce evidence for their material culture."

In our time, mangrove edge habitat and coral reefs encrustation of fossil dunes characterize the Persian Gulf. Mangroves recolonize easily from established mangrove fringe colonies elsewhere in the Arabian Sea. Artificial reefs are being established today along the coast of Iran. The present-day natural reef developments in the Persian Gulf, corals grow on hardground substrates but have not yet formed the massive calcium carbonate structures familiar from, say, Australia's Great Barrier Reef.

The article Dive conditions described by Eric Bjornstrom found in 1999 in Dubai coral-encrusted sand barrier islands situated 32 km off the coast of the Saudi city of Jubail. There lies a chain of five coral cays, barely above the tide. They appear to be formations called diapirs in which a mobile core containing minerals of low density such as salt, deforms under pressure. The core pushes upwards, deforming overlying rock to form a dome. An ancient diapir at Enorama formed an island in shallow seas, buoyed up by salt. There are similar examples today in the Persian Gulf.

In addition to this large scale flooding of the Persian Gulf there is confirmed evidence of relatively recent extended local flooding in this part of the world. Excavations in Iraq, for example, have shown evidence of a flood at Shuruppak around 2900-2750 BCE which extended nearly as far as the city of Kish (whose king, Etana, supposedly founded the first Sumerian dynasty after the Deluge). Sir C. Leonard Woolley’s excavations at Ur south of Uruk in the 1920s found a more than 2.5 m thick homogeneous silty loam stratum that was void of artifacts, which Woolley in 1931 ascribed to Noah’s Flood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..ehistoric)

May 14, 2009
11:52 pm PDT
sympathyforthedevil
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I watched the History chasnnel "Little Ice Age the other night.

Very interesting 16th -19th century. I think it was mentioned it was not a true Ice Age.

But, there was snow in what is now the siuthern United states, Gulf Coast area.

A large portion of the world was effected by the Little Ice Age, but not all.

Also, another show showed the volcano's under Iceland.

The glaciers are moving fast, I forget at what rate exactly due to this.

They had a machine measure the earths temperature under the glacier.

This creates the cracks and melting.

Anyone see the show? The Iceland show was very interesting.

I enjoyed learning about this, as I don't buy into global warming is actually caused by man.

May 14, 2009
11:54 pm PDT
JDHarrison
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Forum Posts: 202
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December 29, 2012
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2404

Here's something of interest I found on Wikipedia. I had read of this before in another book on the subject.

I think the name of the book was "Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization" by Graham Hancock.

The lower Tigris-Euphrates Valley, reflooding the Persian Gulf (12,000 years ago)

Another type 1 theory. When sea levels were low, the combined Tigris-Euphrates river flowed through a wide flat marshy landscape. The Persian Gulf today has an average depth of only 35 m. During the most recent glaciation, which ended 12,000 years ago, worldwide sea levels dropped 120 to 130 m, leaving the bed of the Persian Gulf well above sea level during the glacial maximum. It had to have been a swampy freshwater floodplain, where water was retained in all the hollows. High in the Taurus Mountains glaciation would have been extensive.

The drainage of the combined glacial era Tigris-Euphrates made its way down the marshes of this proto-Shatt-al-Arab to the Strait of Hormuz into the Arabian Sea. Reports of the exploration ship "Meteor" have confirmed that the Persian Gulf was an entirely dry basin about 15,000 BC. Close to the steeper Iranian side a deep channel apparently marks the course of the ancient extended Shatt al-Arab, being called the "Ur-Schatt". A continuous shallow shelf across the top (north) of the Persian Gulf and down the west side (at 20 m) suggests that this section was the last to be inundated. At the Straits of Hormuz the bathymetric profile indicates a division into two main channels which continue across the Bieban Shelf before dropping to a depth of c 400 m in the Gulf of Oman; the deeper parts of these channels may be due to delta deposits at the edge of the deep ocean collapsing in a succession of big underwater landslides, causing underwater erosion by the resulting turbidity currents.

There is a theory that there was also a Black-Sea-type sill collapse at the Strait of Hormuz at the outlet of the Persian Gulf, so converting this case into type 3.

In a 1981 Journal of Cuneiform Studies article, "The Tangible Evidence for the Earliest Dilmun", Theresa Howard-Carter espoused her theory identifying Dilmun with Qurna, an island at the Strait of Hormuz. Her scenario put the original mouths of the Tigris-Euphrates rivers, which she thought should be the site of the primeval Dilmun, at or even beyond the Straits of Hormuz. Mainstream archaeologists have avoided mentioning her article for fear of its apparent catastrophism, an awkward subject in geology. Theresa Howard-Carter also wrote: "It is more likely that the original Persian Gulf inhabitants lived along the banks of the lower or extended Shatt al-Arab, ranging some 800 km across the dry Persian Gulf bed. We can thus postulate that the pre-Sumerian cultures had more than ample time to be born and flourish in a riverine setting, encouraged by the agricultural potential and the blessings of a temperate climate. The fact that the body of proof for the existence of these societies must now lie at the bottom of the Persian Gulf furnishes at least a temporary excuse for the archaeologist's failure to produce evidence for their material culture."

In our time, mangrove edge habitat and coral reefs encrustation of fossil dunes characterize the Persian Gulf. Mangroves recolonize easily from established mangrove fringe colonies elsewhere in the Arabian Sea. Artificial reefs are being established today along the coast of Iran. The present-day natural reef developments in the Persian Gulf, corals grow on hardground substrates but have not yet formed the massive calcium carbonate structures familiar from, say, Australia's Great Barrier Reef.

The article Dive conditions described by Eric Bjornstrom found in 1999 in Dubai coral-encrusted sand barrier islands situated 32 km off the coast of the Saudi city of Jubail. There lies a chain of five coral cays, barely above the tide. They appear to be formations called diapirs in which a mobile core containing minerals of low density such as salt, deforms under pressure. The core pushes upwards, deforming overlying rock to form a dome. An ancient diapir at Enorama formed an island in shallow seas, buoyed up by salt. There are similar examples today in the Persian Gulf.

In addition to this large scale flooding of the Persian Gulf there is confirmed evidence of relatively recent extended local flooding in this part of the world. Excavations in Iraq, for example, have shown evidence of a flood at Shuruppak around 2900-2750 BCE which extended nearly as far as the city of Kish (whose king, Etana, supposedly founded the first Sumerian dynasty after the Deluge). Sir C. Leonard Woolley’s excavations at Ur south of Uruk in the 1920s found a more than 2.5 m thick homogeneous silty loam stratum that was void of artifacts, which Woolley in 1931 ascribed to Noah’s Flood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..ehistoric)

Nice Chad! This is what I am talking about. While there is alot in the archaeological record that supports a flood in this part of the world, to date there is nothing to support a flood on a global level.

Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been.- Jim Bishop
May 16, 2009
5:25 pm PDT
MysticalKnight
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As long as Waterworld doesn't happen, I'm good. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Fairy.jpg
May 17, 2009
10:35 pm PDT
Guest
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Of course then there's the Yellowstone caldera that erupts every 600,000 years or so. Last eruption, roughly 600,000 years ago. Ash depth about six feet deep as far east as Chicago.

May 17, 2009
11:26 pm PDT
MysticalKnight
California
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Of course then there's the Yellowstone caldera that erupts every 600,000 years or so. Last eruption, roughly 600,000 years ago. Ash depth about six feet deep as far east as Chicago.

And yet another natural disaster we have to look forward to. LOL

Fairy.jpg
May 28, 2009
5:26 pm PDT
norcalmonkey
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Just today on http://www.yahoo.com's main page there's an article on the rise of ocean water and it's impact on the northeastern coastline of our country projected to be worse then anticipated. Relates to the Greenland thaw you referenced above…

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SirusXm


June 29, 2009
12:38 am PDT
Brad Berg
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Not quite. The archaeological record shows evidence of a massive flood that occured approxiamtely 10,000 years ago in the area known as the cradle of civilization. This area encompasses today's nations of Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Northern Saudi Arabia. Known in ancient times as Mesopotamia, some of the very first known writings in the world occured in this area, and chronicled this event in a document known as "The Epic of Gilgamesh". It tells the tale of a man who was instructed by a Sumerian deity to build a boat to survive the destruction of the world by flood. Sound familiar? The archaeological record however, does show that a large flood event occured in this area, and ecompassed the entire region. One of the main theories on this event is that an ice dam that had been left by retreating glaciers ruptured, causing a massive flood. Remember, during this time there were no communications like we have today, and a person's perception of the world was the area that he lived in. They did not have knowledge of other continents or lands, and their idea of "world" was limited to the area they could travel. So in essence, a flood like this would have "covered the world". While the archaeological record does support a massive flood in this part of the world, to date there is no evidence to support the idea that a global flood ecompassed the entire world at some time in the distant past.

True….I would never argue that. However, there is new evidence that has been found in the area of the Grand Canyon that shows strong evidence of massive flooding at approximately the same time.

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