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OfflineAnyone who has seen me in my undies knows that evolution has a reverse gear. Scary but true.
Natural selection is just like Occam's razor – often misapplied. Natural selection does not mean that humans evolved from monkeys. It only means that genetics that are successful in theire environment will be passed on. Why are monkeys still around if humans evolved from them? Because their survival rate is sufficient that they can breed enough to make up for their losses. It's the definition of any successful species. If human encroachment into their habitat wipes them out, what is that but natural selection in action?
If God was calling the shots (ala creationism), would humans be allowed to depopulate entire species in the Amazonian rain forests? Only we can stop ourselves from clubbing baby harp seals into extinction. Baby seals can't defend themselves, nor can they afford lawyers on their own. If we choose to, they can be naturally deselected in a New York minute.
The reason people are so afraid of natural selection is that it utterly lacks compassion. It is brutal, cold, and ugly. It is also very real, and it always has been. We are just the first species on Earth so successful that we get a choice in the matter.
OfflineYes, when one chooses to ignore the volumes of evidence in support of natural selection. But that's not what you intended, I'm guessing.
I was suggesting that it is what we do not know that allows the debate to continue. Although I don't see the concepts as mutually exclusive, I understand that the creationist view relies heavily on faith and has little supporting evidence – except the same evidence on which the evolutionists rest their case.
The scientists, too, rely on faith. Faith that the science underlying the interpretation of evidence is sound. Faith that the unanswered questions (the huge gaping holes in the theory) will eventually resolve in their favor. One thing we know for a fact, the annals of science are replete with cases of misinterpreted evidence.
What I fail to understand is why it is necessary to diminish those holding an opposing view? Science is not the result, it is the process of questioning, and seeking answers. A true scientist welcomes opposing views because they lead to better science, and better answers. It's true that there are volumes of evidence in support of evolution, or at least that can be interpreted as such. It is also true that there are significant questions that still need to be answered, and remain unanswered because there is no evidence to answer them, nor basis in the current theory from which their answers can be inferred.
As is usually the case, it is what we don't know we don't know that causes us to question, and pursue science. We should welcome that, and not be so afraid that our own views might be challenged and possibly refuted – whichever views one holds.
OfflineAnyone who has seen me in my undies knows that evolution has a reverse gear. Scary but true.
Natural selection is just like Occam's razor – often misapplied. Natural selection does not mean that humans evolved from monkeys. It only means that genetics that are successful in theire environment will be passed on. Why are monkeys still around if humans evolved from them? Because their survival rate is sufficient that they can breed enough to make up for their losses. It's the definition of any successful species. If human encroachment into their habitat wipes them out, what is that but natural selection in action?
If God was calling the shots (ala creationism), would humans be allowed to depopulate entire species in the Amazonian rain forests? Only we can stop ourselves from clubbing baby harp seals into extinction. Baby seals can't defend themselves, nor can they afford lawyers on their own. If we choose to, they can be naturally deselected in a New York minute.
The reason people are so afraid of natural selection is that it utterly lacks compassion. It is brutal, cold, and ugly. It is also very real, and it always has been. We are just the first species on Earth so successful that we get a choice in the matter.
Hi Jyb,
Seems to me you might be drawing an undue equivalence between natural selection and evolution. It is not the selection of beneficial traits that is at question, rather it is the force that brings those traits to the test.
Here's an analogy I like to use (for what it's worth).
Your spouse asks you to go to the store for ice cream. You get in the car, start the engine, press the accelerator, and direct the car on the path to the store. An evolutionist would explain the wear on the tires that occurs on the trip as the result of friction between the tire and the road. It can be tested, measured, and with test results in hand the amount of wear can be predicted for future trips. The Evolutionist might even go all the way back to the science of combustion as generating force that eventually results in the friction. The Evolutionist might even view your actions as contributing to the tire wear.
By contrast, the creationist would suggest that it is the unmeasurable drive that motivated your spouse to desire ice cream that led, eventually, to the tire wear. They do not necessarily deny the physical factors involved. The downside to the creationist view (or perhaps the up side if you are a creationist) is that the initial motivating force is unknowable: is it the desire for ice cream, or the motivation to invent ice cream to be desired, or perhaps the force that led cows to produce milk to be used as ice cream… etc.
In this analogy, natural selection occurs when you buy new tires. You choose a brand that will not wear out as quickly.
OfflineScience is not the result, it is the process of questioning, and seeking answers. A true scientist welcomes opposing views because they lead to better science, and better answers. It's true that there are volumes of evidence in support of evolution, or at least that can be interpreted as such. It is also true that there are significant questions that still need to be answered, and remain unanswered because there is no evidence to answer them, nor basis in the current theory from which their answers can be inferred.
As is usually the case, it is what we don't know we don't know that causes us to question, and pursue science. We should welcome that, and not be so afraid that our own views might be challenged and possibly refuted – whichever views one holds.
This is quite well stated. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
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OfflineI'd just like to inject a little anthropology to this if I may. The problem with a "missing link" theory is, if one truly understands the theory behind evolution and the associated process of natural selection, there can be no "missing link". Unfortunately, the idea of a "missing link" is a leftover relic of the Victorian era of science. During this period when scientists of the time were trying to understand Darwin's new theory on evolution, they placed the entire process on an idea known as "Linear progression". This is the thought that man and his ancestors evolved in a straight line so to speak. I’m sure you are all aware of the old charts that used to be displayed in science classes showing a monkey on one end, and a modern day human at the other, with all the supposed changes in between. This is linear progression, and anthropologists who study evolution know this to be wrong. Unfortunately in this case, the media industry still uses the term to promote discoveries such as this because it still invoke a sense of sensationalism to those who are less informed. The evolutionary process would be more akin to a tree with many branches. Some branches reach dead ends, while other branches continue to grow. The only thing that the branches have in common with each other is the trunk, which would represent the early formation of ALL life on the planet, not just man and primates. This is a simplified explanation, and the evolutionary process is certainly more complicated than this, but my point is that currently in the field of anthropology there is no ongoing search for a “missing link”. Fossils such as this are studied in depth and differences and similarities are noted in order to help us reach a better understanding of our early origin
OfflineIt should be noted that evolutionary theory is not in its infancy; the theory is robust with an enormity of evidentiary weight. Like the real Dawkins, I feel that there will be changes in our understanding of natural selection, though I don't believe it will be turned on its ear.
Well said!
OfflineHi Jyb,
Seems to me you might be drawing an undue equivalence between natural selection and evolution. It is not the selection of beneficial traits that is at question, rather it is the force that brings those traits to the test.
Here's an analogy I like to use (for what it's worth).
Your spouse asks you to go to the store for ice cream. You get in the car, start the engine, press the accelerator, and direct the car on the path to the store. An evolutionist would explain the wear on the tires that occurs on the trip as the result of friction between the tire and the road. It can be tested, measured, and with test results in hand the amount of wear can be predicted for future trips. The Evolutionist might even go all the way back to the science of combustion as generating force that eventually results in the friction. The Evolutionist might even view your actions as contributing to the tire wear.
By contrast, the creationist would suggest that it is the unmeasurable drive that motivated your spouse to desire ice cream that led, eventually, to the tire wear. They do not necessarily deny the physical factors involved. The downside to the creationist view (or perhaps the up side if you are a creationist) is that the initial motivating force is unknowable: is it the desire for ice cream, or the motivation to invent ice cream to be desired, or perhaps the force that led cows to produce milk to be used as ice cream… etc.
In this analogy, natural selection occurs when you buy new tires. You choose a brand that will not wear out as quickly.
Quite the opposite. Natural selection is merely a process that occurs every minute of every day. Evolution is a theory that esposes that beneficial mutations will thrive under natural selection. The thing about natural selection is, it only works if all of the initial conditions are equal. It is not an absolute. On a large enough scale, it's a pretty good generality, but the better mutation does not always win out. A chimpanzee that gets overrun by a pack of baboons will not live to see his genetic superiority passed on. It's a cruel world out there, and it's anything but fair.
Quite the opposite. Natural selection is merely a process that occurs every minute of every day. Evolution is a theory that esposes that beneficial mutations will thrive under natural selection. The thing about natural selection is, it only works if all of the initial conditions are equal. It is not an absolute. On a large enough scale, it's a pretty good generality, but the better mutation does not always win out. A chimpanzee that gets overrun by a pack of baboons will not live to see his genetic superiority passed on. It's a cruel world out there, and it's anything but fair.
In the end, what is best genetically speaking may eliminate the null. Which is not to say that gene is superior for survival. As we all know 98 percent of the biotic community has passed from this vale.
OfflineIn the end, what is best genetically speaking may eliminate the null. Which is not to say that gene is superior for survival. As we all know 98 percent of the biotic community has passed from this vale.
Large enough samplings do tend to reduce the margin of error, but again this is reality and individual results may vary. People tend to under-emphasize how absolutely ignorant it is to only deal in absolutes.
I see it as a case of either championing ideas that are at least thousand years old versus idas that are a hundred years old. Either way, they were the best ideas of their time based on what was known about the world. However life came about on Earth, nobody who was there thought to videotape the event, so we really don't know for sure. Evolution would seem to make more sense, since almost every ancient culture had their own "creation mythology", but for all we really know, aliens seeded the earth with life. Therefore, preaching evolution as gospel is just as dumb as preaching actual gospel.
Socrates was way ahead of his time.
Large enough samplings do tend to reduce the margin of error, but again this is reality and individual results may vary. People tend to under-emphasize how absolutely ignorant it is to only deal in absolutes.
I see it as a case of either championing ideas that are at least thousand years old versus idas that are a hundred years old. Either way, they were the best ideas of their time based on what was known about the world. However life came about on Earth, nobody who was there thought to videotape the event, so we really don't know for sure. Evolution would seem to make more sense, since almost every ancient culture had their own "creation mythology", but for all we really know, aliens seeded the earth with life. Therefore, preaching evolution as gospel is just as dumb as preaching actual gospel.
Socrates was way ahead of his time.
Hitchens once offered that seeking understanding, humankind preferred a junk theory to no theory at all.
OfflineAnd I guess I should add that I feel as the actual Dawkins. Evolution is as fact, far more true than gospel. If you think that makes me "dumb" so be it.
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. I think evolution is probably the most correct theory of life we currently have, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. What is dumb is believeing that any theory is absolutely irrefutable, when all of the evidence is open to some form of interpretation. Of course, believing absolutely in something that wasn't written down until thousands of years after it "happened", and not in the language of those it "happened to", is even dumber.
At least evolution is an educated guess, and not superstition writ large.
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. I think evolution is probably the most correct theory of life we currently have, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. What is dumb is believeing that any theory is absolutely irrefutable, when all of the evidence is open to some form of interpretation. Of course, believing absolutely in something that wasn't written down until thousands of years after it "happened", and not in the language of those it "happened to", is even dumber.
At least evolution is an educated guess, and not superstition writ large.
But Jy, among those in the know, in which I claim myself in some small way, evolution is indeed writ large. We would indeed bet our lives on the thesis.
Then again, I never cared much for Vegas . . .
OfflineI suppose I just have an issue with anyone who thinks that they cannot possibly be wrong. There is a huge difference between believing something and knowing it, but I doubt that most people can tell the difference any more.
If you replace dogmatic religion with dogmatic science, then you're just kneeling at a different alter.
I believe in evolution, but I don't know that it is fact. I wasn't around when 99.9999% of it took place, so how could I know for certain?
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