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I would disagree. While racism itself may be a social construct, the xenophobia that causes it is inherent to the human condition. It takes a conscious effort to overcome our instinctive fear of that which is different from us, and embrace the differences while seeking the common ground. The reason that children don't treat other "races" differently is that they haven't form a strong image of themselves yet.
We still have progress to make, but when you look at the long sad history of how people have treated each other in the past, we've come a long way in a relatively short time.
Not my experience as a minority.
Six months ago after a clerk viewing my last name on my credit card in Cecil County, Md it was suggested I buy gas some place else.
It is going on five years, that I removed my teenage daughter from a public high school.
Harassing phone calls, and being pelted with eggs while we were outside.
Having a KKK symbol, put in my lawn with grass killer.
My house was spray painted with a swastika, and leave jew k i k e.
These teeneage children who did this were taught anti-semitism.
It very sad. Also, no township police so response time is 30 minutes for state troopers.
There was nothing, they could do unless the people were caught. These incidents lasted for about 4 months and mostly weekends.
Well, I finally did catch them one night. A gun, and I own two Dobermans. I went into Ninja mode. Nobody will screw with my family. Hate crimes are on the rise, and many are not even reported by the local authorities in some cases to the FBI.
Do I harbor ill feelings no. But, I feel now after their arrest I sent a messgae to leave my family and home alone.
Today, in the news, children in North East Philly were thrown out of a swimming pool due to skin color.
Any type of racism or bashing of anyones beliefs in anything, I have problem with, and will offer someone my full support and help.
I know how it feels. My daughter suffered greatly through this. Her self esteem was shattered. Five years latter with counseling and our support she is starting to get on the right track.
I think we have really far to go!
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Not my experience as a minority.
Six months ago after a clerk viewing my last name on my credit card in Cecil County, Md it was suggested I buy gas some place else.
It is going on five years, that I removed my teenage daughter from a public high school.
Harassing phone calls, and being pelted with eggs while we were outside.
Having a KKK symbol, put in my lawn with grass killer.
My house was spray painted with a swastika, and leave jew k i k e.
These teeneage children who did this were taught anti-semitism.
It very sad. Also, no township police so response time is 30 minutes for state troopers.
There was nothing, they could do unless the people were caught. These incidents lasted for about 4 months and mostly weekends.
Well, I finally did catch them one night. A gun, and I own two Dobermans. I went into Ninja mode. Nobody will screw with my family. Hate crimes are on the rise, and many are not even reported by the local authorities in some cases to the FBI.
Do I harbor ill feelings no. But, I feel now after their arrest I sent a messgae to leave my family and home alone.
Today, in the news, children in North East Philly were thrown out of a swimming pool due to skin color.
Any type of racism or bashing of anyones beliefs in anything, I have problem with, and will offer someone my full support and help.
I know how it feels. My daughter suffered greatly through this. Her self esteem was shattered. Five years latter with counseling and our support she is starting to get on the right track.
I think we have really far to go!
I just can't believe that things like this still go on. It's just pathetic. That's an understatement. Sorry you had/have to deal with this type of treatment. It sounds horrible.
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Not my experience as a minority.
Six months ago after a clerk viewing my last name on my credit card in Cecil County, Md it was suggested I buy gas some place else.
It is going on five years, that I removed my teenage daughter from a public high school.
Harassing phone calls, and being pelted with eggs while we were outside.
Having a KKK symbol, put in my lawn with grass killer.
My house was spray painted with a swastika, and leave jew k i k e.
These teeneage children who did this were taught anti-semitism.
It very sad. Also, no township police so response time is 30 minutes for state troopers.
There was nothing, they could do unless the people were caught. These incidents lasted for about 4 months and mostly weekends.
Well, I finally did catch them one night. A gun, and I own two Dobermans. I went into Ninja mode. Nobody will screw with my family. Hate crimes are on the rise, and many are not even reported by the local authorities in some cases to the FBI.
Do I harbor ill feelings no. But, I feel now after their arrest I sent a messgae to leave my family and home alone.
Today, in the news, children in North East Philly were thrown out of a swimming pool due to skin color.
Any type of racism or bashing of anyones beliefs in anything, I have problem with, and will offer someone my full support and help.
I know how it feels. My daughter suffered greatly through this. Her self esteem was shattered. Five years latter with counseling and our support she is starting to get on the right track.
I think we have really far to go!
From what I read this pool was already rented out & to certain ppl & others crashed it, using the old race card to be able to crash a private party. Things aren't always what they seem by the media.
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From what I read this pool was already rented out & to certain ppl & others crashed it, using the old race card to be able to crash a private party. Things aren't always what they seem by the media.
I agree, things are not what they always seem in the media. I would love to see the story that you read.
I live outside of Philly and have been following this story, and have not come across anything about this being a private party, private swim club, yes. Nothing about anyone crashing, anything.
The story is on nbc10.com
Facts of the story, with statements made by swim club president.
Private swim club. Creative Steps Day Camp, pays 1950 to swim club so the campers (children) can swim one day a week at the private membership pool.
Campers show up to swim and are asked to leave.
(I will leave out the hearsay).
On Tuesday evening, John Duesler ( president of the swim club) makes a statement on why the swimmers were asked to leave. "There was a concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion and atmosphere of the club".
Fact is Mr. Duesler new the race and number of childeren when payment was made and went into a contract for services, with Creative Steps Day Camp.
Friday Mr. Duesler issues an apology. Stating, " That was a terrible choice of words, blown out of proportion", he said Friday.
"Once the kids came, we've never done this before and it's very unfortunate there were too many children for us to handle, this was a safety situation. Many of the children
were not able to swim, and we were overwhelmed with safety issues".
The money will also be refunded to the camp.
These are the statements Mr. Duesler made to the public, looks exactly like racism to me, followed by safety issues.
I'm a very skeptical type of person. so since I was not present, I'll go by Mr. Duesler's public statements only.
Considering, how I also view the news.
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Not my experience as a minority.
Six months ago after a clerk viewing my last name on my credit card in Cecil County, Md it was suggested I buy gas some place else.
It is going on five years, that I removed my teenage daughter from a public high school.
Harassing phone calls, and being pelted with eggs while we were outside.
Having a KKK symbol, put in my lawn with grass killer.
My house was spray painted with a swastika, and leave jew k i k e.
These teeneage children who did this were taught anti-semitism.
It very sad. Also, no township police so response time is 30 minutes for state troopers.
There was nothing, they could do unless the people were caught. These incidents lasted for about 4 months and mostly weekends.
Well, I finally did catch them one night. A gun, and I own two Dobermans. I went into Ninja mode. Nobody will screw with my family. Hate crimes are on the rise, and many are not even reported by the local authorities in some cases to the FBI.
Do I harbor ill feelings no. But, I feel now after their arrest I sent a messgae to leave my family and home alone.
Today, in the news, children in North East Philly were thrown out of a swimming pool due to skin color.
Any type of racism or bashing of anyones beliefs in anything, I have problem with, and will offer someone my full support and help.
I know how it feels. My daughter suffered greatly through this. Her self esteem was shattered. Five years latter with counseling and our support she is starting to get on the right track.
I think we have really far to go!
100 years ago what happened to you (as wrong as it was) would've been publicly accepted. Now for the most part it brings public outrage. You are right that there is still a long ways to go, but at least civilization has been generally been pointed in the right direction when viewed against the atrocities that have occurred throughout history.
It's been less than 65 years since the last US "concentration camp" closed down. In WWII we rounded up all of the Japanese-Americans, in the name of "national security" and locked them away for the duration of the war. A scant 60 years later, a blink of the eye in historical terms, nobody would even publicly suggest rounding up Muslims after 9/11. Every generation is a little more "enlightened" than the previous one, but it's going to take time to completely rid ourselves of the worst vestiges of human nature.
My point was that xenophobia is instinctive to human beings, just like many other aspects of our "baser nature", and it makes it all too easy for prejudice and racism to take hold. It's something that has to be educated away, like most other forms of ignorance.
100 years ago what happened to you (as wrong as it was) would've been publicly accepted. Now for the most part it brings public outrage. You are right that there is still a long ways to go, but at least civilization has been generally been pointed in the right direction when viewed against the atrocities that have occurred throughout history.
It's been less than 65 years since the last US "concentration camp" closed down. In WWII we rounded up all of the Japanese-Americans, in the name of "national security" and locked them away for the duration of the war. A scant 60 years later, a blink of the eye in historical terms, nobody would even publicly suggest rounding up Muslims after 9/11. Every generation is a little more "enlightened" than the previous one, but it's going to take time to completely rid ourselves of the worst vestiges of human nature.
My point was that xenophobia is instinctive to human beings, just like many other aspects of our "baser nature", and it makes it all too easy for prejudice and racism to take hold. It's something that has to be educated away, like most other forms of ignorance.
If one attends any sanctioned NASCAR event, one might see any number of confederate flags hoisted up along with the Stars and Stripes. These genuises are shocked that some are offended by that, their tiny brains unable to conceive that a number of their fellow Americans were hoisted up, a rope around their necks, in conjunction with a variation of that confederate flag, depending on their confederate state. That they are bewildered by the offense taken suggests much.
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If one attends any sanctioned NASCAR event, one might see any number of confederate flags hoisted up along with the Stars and Stripes. These genuises are shocked that some are offended by that, their tiny brains unable to conceive that a number of their fellow Americans were hoisted up, a rope around their necks, in conjunction with a variation of that confederate flag, depending on their confederate state. That they are bewildered by the offense taken suggests much.
Problem is, you can't just beat the ignorance out of people. They have to see the error of their ways and want to change themselves. Not an ideal situation, but that's just the way people are.
Problem is, you can't just beat the ignorance out of people. They have to see the error of their ways and want to change themselves. Not an ideal situation, but that's just the way people are.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure tribalism will ever be defeated. It is forever linked with religion.
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Quite frankly, I'm not sure tribalism will ever be defeated. It is forever linked with religion.
Religion isn't the problem. I'm not religious, but even I can figure out that if everyone in the world treated others like Jesus is said to have done, this planet would be a far better place.
The problem is the evil that is justified in the name of religion, not that it is much different than the evil justified in the name of race, color, or creed. All just different pages of the same crappy book.
Then again, if you make atheism your religion, does spreading the truth as you see it justify bashing others who might see things otherwise? If your position on something is really the truth, others will come to see it as such if you respectfully allow them to think it through. That goes equally for all sides of the issue. Moral superiority isn't all that attractive no matter who is standing in front of the mirror.
I don't personally believe in the Holy Bible, the Torah, or the Q'uran, but that doesn't mean I can't learn anything useful from them.
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Guys – I am getting concerned about the direction of this thread. I am worried that it will turn into an all-out argument about racism, which is a very sensitive topic for pretty much everyone. There are no winners in this kind of argument, nor is it constructive.
I agree, racism is an issue. I also agree that we are inherently xenophobic, which leads to a lot of it. I agree we've come along way. I agree that we have a long way to go and that the current level of racism is still atrocious. I agree that things aren't always what they seem. But sometimes they are exactly what they seem. I am horrified by the things that sympathyforthedevil talked about – and how hurtful it can all be to everyone – especially kids.
I also think that we are close to making angry and hurtful arguments, which is not something that we'd like to see as part of our forum or our community.
Just my take on this, but I am wondering if we should let this thread lie for now, if everyone feels that they have spoken their piece. I'd prefer not to lock or delete this thread, because I trust that all of you are adult enough to realize that it is a discussion that winds up with no winners. We aren't going to solve racism here, unfortunately. The way to solve it is to embody acceptance. Of race. Of religion. Of belief systems. Instead of accusing everyone else of being wrong, be right in the way that you live so that others can learn from your example. Treat everyone with respect. Don't call people stupid – or imply they are stupid – because they believe, live or chose differently than you do.
Please be respectful. Everyone. And let's just let this thread go.
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On the surface, it certainly looks like racism, and it may well be, but only Mr. Duesler knows for certain what his motives were. If you're looking for racism in this story, there is certainly enough rope to hang someone. If you're looking for an example of the liberal media blowing things out of proportion, then the safety aspects take on much more significance.
In boot camp, our company had to go through swim training, in case our ships were ever sunk and we had to go into the water and await rescue. There are two things I distinctly remember from that day. The first was not listening to the Navy SEALs who were running the course and having to do 50 push-ups with my swim trunks in my mouth (fastest push-ups I ever did!). The second was the sight of a fellow recruit named James Brown, who in his late 20's had never been in water and was terrified of it, being effectively thrown into the pool because he couldn't bring himself to jump in. He panicked so badly that he not only nearly drowned himself, he also managed to put three SEALs underwater for several moments, before they could wrestle him to the surface and literally beat him into submission. While that may be an extreme example, the safety aspect of a hoard of new swimmers should not be underestimated or casually dismissed.
As for the racism aspects, did anyone inquire as to whether all the kids were sent away, or only kids with a certain "complexion"? To me, that would certainly be pertinent information, as would knowing whether the children were vetted for their ability to swim before they were sent off. If it turns out that the divide was purely racial, then perhaps Mr.Duesler should start looking into a new line of work, like say in the penal system.
/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
' /> Love the Seal story. My nephew was Seal, he had great stories about swimming the bay out to ocean and back, in Puerto Rica. I think safety was an issue, I was a life guard. That many kids, you would have to beef up the watch.
No mention of any pretesting for swim ability, the old guppie, minnow, etc.
Only the children with the certain complextion were turned away.
In response to your other post, in general I do agree with you. Just have a general view similar to yours and a personal one.
Folks sorry if I ruffled feathers here, It was not my intent at all. I realized, it was suggested not to respond, but I just really wanted to say that. I was not trying to derail and have the thread turn into racism, or freak anyone out.
Just spoke my mind and moved on. Thanks for the conversation.
How about those Mayans /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> Peace!
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/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> Love the Seal story. My nephew was Seal, he had great stories about swimming the bay out to ocean and back, in Puerto Rica. I think safety was an issue, I was a life guard. That many kids, you would have to beef up the watch.
No mention of any pretesting for swim ability, the old guppie, minnow, etc.
Only the children with the certain complextion were turned away.
In response to your other post, in general I do agree with you. Just have a general view similar to yours and a personal one.
Folks sorry if I ruffled feathers here, It was not my intent at all. I realized, it was suggested not to respond, but I just really wanted to say that. I was not trying to derail and have the thread turn into racism, or freak anyone out.
Just spoke my mind and moved on. Thanks for the conversation.
How about those Mayans
/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
No worries. No freaking out. I just want to make sure that we don't step beyond the bounds of good discussion on a sensitive topic. Unfortunately, racism in our society is still a huge issue. And unfortunately, there are many who can't or won't see the subtle inherent racism in everyone – including themselves. We all have a set of assumptions and stereotypes that we walk around with, and it is only through awareness of our own personal biases that we can begin to make things better. I personally feel that any discussion on racism should start with a look at the biases that we each have personally. If we can't acknowledge and overcome our individual biases (and everyone has them), then we will never overcome them as a society.
Carry on – conversate. I'm just asking that you be aware and respectful as you do so (and no one hasn't been yet – I just see how things can degenerate in conversations that start out respectfully.)
Guess I can't understand anyone feeling superior racially, since we all came from the same savannah roughly 150,000 years ago.
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Guess I can't understand anyone feeling superior racially, since we all came from the same savannah roughly 150,000 years ago.
since when do people make a whole lot of sense?
since when do people make a whole lot of sense?
"When you touch me, I feel your thrill, and my own.
I want to fold you into me, close my eyes, and hold until all is dust."
Unknown poet, 1987.
Makes a sort of sense.
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"When you touch me, I feel your thrill, and my own.
I want to fold you into me, close my eyes, and hold until all is dust."
Unknown poet, 1987.
Makes a sort of sense.
Well certainly. Snippets of sense can be expected from most people. But people as a whole, societies, political entities, corporations – most of it doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things. Many can't get out of their own way just to get where they want to go. We don't even make sense to ourselves most of the time. How on earth can we then expect others to understand us, especially when we obfuscate intentionally in order to make ourselves feel more important or intellectually superior than those we are communicating with?
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Well certainly. Snippets of sense can be expected from most people. But people as a whole, societies, political entities, corporations – most of it doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things. Many can't get out of their own way just to get where they want to go. We don't even make sense to ourselves most of the time. How on earth can we then expect others to understand us, especially when we obfuscate intentionally in order to make ourselves feel more important or intellectually superior than those we are communicating with?
Indubitably! /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':huh:' />
Well certainly. Snippets of sense can be expected from most people. But people as a whole, societies, political entities, corporations – most of it doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things. Many can't get out of their own way just to get where they want to go. We don't even make sense to ourselves most of the time. How on earth can we then expect others to understand us, especially when we obfuscate intentionally in order to make ourselves feel more important or intellectually superior than those we are communicating with?
I guess I'm really thick. I don't get this at all.
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I guess I'm really thick. I don't get this at all.
See. I don't make a lick of sense. I just proved my point.
See. I don't make a lick of sense. I just proved my point.
You might have, but . . .
"To be or not to be, whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and opposing them, end them?"
Find this sensible, though you may not.
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