Co-exist
by Karen Frazier
Paranormal Underground Magazine
Some friends of ours – a husband and wife who are owners of a very active local paranormal team – were recently featured on the front page of the Seattle Times. It was a nice little article about their investigation of Seattle’s Central Tavern, as well as a feature piece that talked about their hobby. Both have recently been laid off from their jobs and, while they look for work, are more actively pursuing investigation. And why shouldn’t they?
Along with the article on the front page was the online article, which has a comments section enabled. Some of the comments were vicious….but not unexpected. There are a lot of people out there who don’t believe in ghosts and believe that paranormal investigation serves no purpose. Trust me. I hear from those people all of the time.
What was surprising, however, were the attacks from people in the field. One local group left a comment about how the featured couple were only out for publicity and not real investigators. They then left a second comment talking about real investigators with a link to their own site.
Why on earth would people with similar goals feel such a need to tear down another group who was pursuing exactly the same interests?
I’ve never understood this – the hypercompetitive thing that some teams seem to have with other paranormal investigators. You see it all of the time in the paranormal. Our methods are better. We are more established. We have a better website. We know more important people than you do.
It brings to mind the recent story about the group in Canada who was putting on a charity event and received an absolutely vicious email from another group. I blogged about it here.
If these were the only two stories that I’d heard like this, then I would think that they were anomalous. But I hear them all of the time. Groups viciously slamming other groups. Infighting. It can get to be a real soap opera.
Yes – there are teams out there who do things differently from one another. There is no standard “way” to investigate the paranormal. There are only ideas. There are different focuses and beliefs. Some focus on science. Some focus on a more spiritual approach. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t peacefully co-exist.
I know it’s possible. I’ll give you an example. Dreamsinger (of TIPS and Darkrealm Labs) and I may be as far apart on the spectrum in belief about the paranormal as you can find. He is very scientifically focused. It is what he is good at. The man has a brilliant analytical and scientific mind – and he can debunk like nobody’s business. I, on the other hand, am a touchy-feelie woo woo kind of gal. I love science, but for me, science is kind of secondary to how I feel deep down in my gut. Still – I appreciate Dreamsinger’s approach. He is actually the first person who comes to mind when I have a confounding piece of evidence.
If you read the comments on my blog, you will see that Dreamsinger and I don’t particularly have the same view of the world. And yet, TIPS links to our blog, and we frequently link to his.
I can only speak for myself, but I believe that this is because there’s room for both of our viewpoints. I respect his focus on science. I think it is a nice counterpoint to mine, and we need both points of view in the paranormal community.
Respectful debate is one thing. Out and out ripping one another is something else entirely.
So what is it? Why can’t different paranormal groups with different approaches and philosophies co-exist? Why can’t we hear a different idea or see a different approach without our hackles rising and feeling the need to lash out?
I’ve said it before. We don’t know what we are looking for. We are quite literally chasing shadows. And since we are all doing it on our own dime, it must be a passion for all of those who pursue it. Why not get to know and enjoy those who share our passions, rather than being threatened by them?
There is no right. There is no wrong. There are ideas, techniques and methods – any of which may lead to discovery.
Or, we may truly only be chasing shadows. That’s what’s so great about the paranormal. We don’t know. And if we spend our time worrying about the other groups that are out there rather than sharing information and ideas, we probably never will.
Great article–couldn’t agree more! I’ve seen infighting, bashing, and a total refusal to share evidence. It’s downright disgusting!–and as an aside: some of the TAPS family groups seem to be the worst! I have nothing at all against TAPS but some of thir extended groups need to be kept in check. I don’t know if they feel the TAPS name makes them better than every other group but it need to stop if we ever expect to establish ourselves as legitimate scientific field.
I read that newspaper article and the comments the other day. My eyes roll at these types of things, I WILL never get trashing someone else to make ones self look better. It’s exactly the way I see it. The world is big enough for all, I say, like or lump it. I feel very strongly about this. Don’t these people who make these type of comments and belittle other groups, think that maybe the average person (non investigator) can see right through them. I think it shows who they really are! Anything someone does in this field in a positive light, with good intentions could benefit others.I know one thing, if I ever needed an investiagtion, i would NEVER call a group who did this, and I would search on line if they made negative comments about others. I also, would never participate in one of their events. Respect, I’m old fashioned that way. Oh, end rant!
I personally like having other groups around. It’s nice knowing that if I have a case that is too big for me, I have someone to invite and help us if needed. And it works the other way around also. Granted we haven’t had to use each other yet. We need each other in this field, we need the peers to keep us honest and with more heads thinking we will solve any problem we come across.
Every time I hear this, and I hear it a lot. The Green Eyed Monster comes to mind. Usually it revolves around one person or group getting recognition before or instead of the another team who thinks they are more deserving of the notoriety. Most of it is jealously. I think there is plenty of room for all. One problem maybe is there is no scientific paranormal journal to get your findings scrutinized, reviewed, compared and published. That might help.
I do find it amusing most times but I think that the calling a few into question is warranted in some instances. However, to do so with no proof just makes the accuser look less professional than the person or group they are talking about.
One thing I don’t fully understand is why some people and groups are so relentless in trying to obtain so-called evidence from others? Then attack them when they don’t receive it? Calling them non professional and not real investigators when 95% of them are ghost hunters and not investigators anyway. Why do people even want evidence of other groups or even care? Can’t they do the work and get their own evidence?
I guess I just don’t get it. Maybe we should question those who attack others as to their motives? I get attacked a lot but it just rolls off as I see no reason to get upset over others opinions. If they don’t see what I see then maybe I need to adjust my thinking, not theirs.
I do agree with one thing. To blindly attack another person or group because they believe or do something different is a sign of low character of the attacker. If you are going to argue or debate then all you need to do is follow some simple rules. This way you learn.
Maybe some people just need to remember…
Attack the argument and not the arguer. If someone is attacking you personally, instead of your theory, statements, questions or findings then they are just what they seem and should be disregarded. If you respond in kind then you are just doing what they want and feeding their negativity.
Ah, ghost hunting turf wars that’s a funny thing. I get images of ghost groups standing on a hill top, swing their EMF detectors in the air, while a brave leader rides by and yells, “They may take our lives but they will never take our voice recorders.” And the nerds cheer. Paranormal investigation is neccessary on two fronts. Science would have us believe that we are nothing more than soulless automotons ghost investigating proves we have a soul. And we are a high tech 21st century version of the storyteller, we keep the legends alive. And finally of course TAPS family members have a big ego they work for Big Daddy J, nothing is haunted unless he says so(Dripping sarcasm). We can get along we just have to remember that we are working towards the same goal and that is proving that we are so much more than just shaved monkeys.
All of this fighting makes these groups look rather silly. There is room for a wide range of approaches to paranormal inquiry. Like you pointed out, Karen, Dream has very different ideas on things than you do, but that’s OK. I consider myself a scientist, although paranormal material is more of a personal interest on my part rather than a focus of study. That being said, I don’t come at things from the same angle that Dream does either. I still have a lot of respect for the guy. And I can also appreciate your very humanistic approach to this topic, Karen. After all, what is being investigated is really just part of the human experience.
I guess the one thing I would like to see is more education among the ghost hunting groups. Not silly TV show, para-celeb classes on how to do things like they are done on TV. I’m talking about understanding the history of parapsychology and knowing about the models of psi functioning that have been put forward and researched by scientists working in this field. I know people like Loyd Auerbach and Pamela Heath have done a lot of work towards trying to educate people about parapsychology, which is awesome. But it would be nice if the people involved in these ghost hunting groups could take a bit of initiative and read some books on their own as well. (Good books, not the silly crap put out by TV celebs!)
Dean Radin’s “Entangled Minds” is one book to start off with. Loyd Auerbach’s book are great fun and very useful for people wanting to take up ghost hunting as a hobby. Charles Tart’s “The End of Materialism” isn’t primarily about ghosts, but it has a very useful list of references in it that are valuable to anyone interested in furthering their knowledge of paranormal phenomenon.
I think a lot of the silliness and outright nastiness shown by some groups has a lot to do with a lack of education. They try to emulate what is shown on TV instead of being inspired to look into this material and see the bigger picture. It would be nice if celebrities like Jason and Grant would encourage education instead of just marketing crappy books and lame conventions. I would rather meet people like Dean Radin, Loyd Auerbach, Gary Schwartz, Julie Beischel, Pamela Heath, Charles Tart, William Roll, Stephan Schwartz and Stephen E. Braude. Those are a few of the people actually trying to add to our understanding of paranormal experiences.
You have to also realize that there are a group of people out there that just want to write smartass or mean things about any article that is online in their local paper. A topic like a couple who are ghost hunters will get them even more fired up. I’ll be reading my local paper, the Dallas Morning News, online and I’ll check out the comments section on a story about motorist getting killed on one of our highways. You should read some of the awful things people will say about them losing their life in an accident. Some people want to just be a-holes.
We can “co-exist,” because I have always heard that, “Before you can have “faith” in anything, first, you must “doubt.” The “doubting” is what “drives” you to seek for the answers, but, when you come across something which science cannot explain, then you simply must accept “the alternative,” and the alternative is, “there is another side.”
Remember, “We must doubt before we can have faith,” because we should never accept everything we are told, or that we read, or even that which we see. My grandmother always used to say, “Never believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.” Investigate!
Me, I am a “true believer,” because “I know” that the other side exists, and no one can tell me differently. Yet, I still investigate more, just because I am addicted to “knowing more” about the other side! I am with you, Karen. I am both “scientific-minded,” yet, there are those times when my intellect/gut-feelings tell me that this is something totally out there!!!
Oops, I meant to write “…there are those times when my intuition/gut-feelings tell me that this is something totally out there!!!” Meaning, it is a situation which science nor logic can explain.
You hit this one right on the head, ladies. I think these groups that try to dis’ each other are just afraid of their losing face when different findings occur at a site both have investigated. I see in many forums how each group has it’s following, and will argue until blue in the face on which group is better, more organized and other biased arguments.
But to see it between actual groups themselves and the sheer hypocrisy of claiming they are better than the featured group, while putting them down by saying that they are just seeking attention but say in a follow-up post something like “we are the real deal, here’s our site”, is plain sad.
With yet another paranormal show coming out on Oct. 6, Ghost Labs, one can only guess how the other television paranormal groups will take this. I also noted the show will be on the Discovery Channel, while channels like Sy Fy and The Travel Channel (while perhaps owned by the same mother company, not sure if this is so, just the fact that several mother companies own many channels in our cable line-ups), Discovery has a “more scientific reputation” so to speak. How GH, GHI and GA will take this, I don’t know. Especially GH as these twins did appear on at least one episode, perhaps more, it was really early in the GH history (not TAPS, but GH).
I know that the article is more about the smaller groups based in different areas around the country (US), but I do see the ramifications bound to climb the ladder. But the smaller State and Regional groups only hurt themselves doing things like this and by hurting each other, they hurt the field itself. Also by the legitimate groups, out there to try and catch something, like shared computer access to help map out the human genome so it would be faster than just one super computer doing it. A mass of home users donating time on their computers when they are not being used, to help this project done faster, the same should apply to evidence found by individual paranormal groups with one another, only seems logical. But there are so many personalities out there, protective of “their stuff” and not willing to say, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great if we all got together and built a database of our findings?” But the ego’s get in the way of this happening
Just a quick note on the new show, I do hope that they don’t have this “thrilling” music background so we can’t actually hear things or show someone getting frightened, only to find out after commercial that it’s a bug. I would also be nice to have a neutral party in the investigations, obviously not affiliated with the group or really any other group, just a neutral observer. But sadly, I don’t see this happening. Wouldn’t it be nice to have Dateline or 60 minutes have reporters go into some of these places? But again, they are probably part of the group of channels owned by one of the mother companies. No company wants to shoot itself in the foot, even if the names of the channels are different.
Sorry to get carried away with this, but I, like yourselves, find not sharing and active harrassment of one group by another is just plain silly, like the example posted in the link to the other topic, which contained DreamWeaver’s experience with his group and a rival group over an investigation site. But cronyism is cronyism, whether with a paranormal group, or actual departments of the US Gov’t, the the CIA and FBI as well as the military branches, although I think it might have gotten a tad better since, 9/11. All because they wanted to be the first to run to the President and say look what we found first!
Cheers,
William
But a quick note, re: television investigations, like the MacNeil house, I do understand why GH wouldn’t use that evidence, because it’s not from their investigation, but second hand information. Sure, they should keep records of what the other team found and maybe throw them a bone by saying “NH Paranomal found some strange things”, in the walk-through. But only present the evidence they gathered at the reveal, it’s like hearsay, it’s been related to us, but for our investigation, we can’t use it unless we collected it, for chain of evidence matters, not like they really follow them, but in an ideal situation.
First, I’d like to thank Karen and others for all the kind words. I’m not sure I deserve them, but kinds words are always nice to hear.
And Karen is absolutely correct about our positions, as well as how we can civilly agree to disagree at times. Something that some groups and people need to learn. This not only leads to better understanding each other, but it helps broaden one’s perspective and possibly see things one would otherwise miss, or, because of our discussion someone else may see something neither party sees.
Earlier I was commenting on a blogradio show on a forum familiar to many here. Near the end of the show the host was talking about groups need to to question others methods and techniques, and how everyone should share their info together. I disagree to an extent. While I do think that everyone should civilly discuss things with each other, I do not think it isn’t wrong to call out methods that have been shown to be worthless. Perpetuating worthless methods is simply spreading ignorance, and that’s one thing that really needs to come to an end in the paranormal community, especially since it’s a con man’s heaven.
But to rip into another group because your beliefs differ is plain stupid. Beliefs cannot be proven. So to call out some other group on their beliefs just shows that group is insecure and is more than likely trying to gain false notoriety.
Myself, I generally tend to tear into the para-celebs because many of them will own up to knowing their methods suck and that there are better ways, but they choose to stick with those that will gain the admiration from people who don’t know better. But groups; groups I don’t rip into. They may not see it that way because I can be as blunt as the backside of a table knife, but it’s usually me pointing straight to the facts, which can be very discouraging for an investigator.
As to the one group leaving nasty comments and saying the other group was only out for publicity, who’s the one trying to gain publicity from their little stunt? I think that if they were truly sincere in their comments about publicity, and they truly understood that they have no more proof than anyone else out there then they would have never posted a link to their own site. To me, that smacks of jealousy, and I believe that Sandy is right that it shows a lack of education.
Whatever their motive is, groups such as this need to work towards the common goal of finding the truth and not worry about who gets credit or gains notoriety.
Does anyone else ever wonder if the entire field isn’t getting saturated already? There seems to be so much competition, which always creates discord (even if theoretically people should still be able to act in a mature fashion, and get along).
I also agree with Dreamsinger on calling out false methodology; it’s simply the right thing to do in the battle against ignorance (I use the term in it’s original, not pejorative, sense), as many ghost hunters do not have a technical or scientific background (and yet they are purporting to conduct a scientific investigation – which is not quite the same as a criminal investigation). In fact, if you mention background or education at all to some, many enthusiasts really get their feathers ruffled! I know this from experience on other forums.
But dissing other groups based on belief alone is just ridiculous and pointless. I didn’t see the article so I don’t know what kind of “attack” it was, but I have a feeling this kind of thing isn’t going away anytime soon.. it’ll get worse before it gets better.
Yes, one methodology I would question by any group, and would be disappointed to see it tonight in the new Ghost Lab show, is the EMF detector.
Why hasn’t anybody put two and two together and look at a common device used to diagnose soft tissue or cartilage injurty, the MRI, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging. These people are going around talking about EM sensitivity, with many symptoms like “itching, feeling of being watched, dread, paranoia to hallucinations”. I’m sure I missed a few they have named. They use a device to measure magnetic fields in the milligauss, the gauss being the measure of a magnetic field, in their investigations. But the MRI machine uses thousands of gauss to be able to image our bodies, obviously to be able to see the structure of muscle and tendons, etc. the magnetic field would have to be very strong.
But do you see warnings like this when you get an MRI? No, except for anxiety by those with claustrophobia, hallucinations by those with a possible brain mass or injury and at the skin level, maybe those with older tattoos with a high concentrate of iron oxide in the ink for the red color MAY feel something. The investigators who say those with EM hypersensitivity could feel something as soon as they enter a room with these low readings they show. Yet, the MRI would be the ultimate fear cage.
I questioned the technician about these claims and was told that indeed no one experienced any of the above symptoms, except those who had reason to do so, like the claustrophobics and brain injury/mass patients. I spent well over 30 minutes in this high magnetic field, I felt nothing, saw nothing (well, except the machine or the back of my eyelids when they were closed), you would also think that if ghosts drew energy from magnetic fields, a MRI room would be packed with them, the ectoplasm dripping off the walls…okay, little carried away there
But it’s just common reasoning. That Barry guy on GHI used to promote a barometer…how a ghost could influence the weight of a column of air that extends to space and weighs ~14.7 pounds per square inch on our bodies, is beyond me. If the pressure did go down, there would be a little dust-devil forming as well, as air rushes in to replace the air that was moved or evaporated or whatever. Or picture taking the plug out of the bath, with the drain being the area of low pressure, the water being the atmosphere, you see the water rushing to replace the water going down the drain. It would take a lot of energy to influence air pressure. But EMF detectors, barometers…bah.
A little note, if magnetic fields did all this, why would there be magnetic bracelets out there to help with pain? Talk about a contradiction. But if you try to point these out, you get shut down. Don’t get me wrong, I have had at least one unexplained incident, but would barometric pressure or electromagnetic fields be the answer? Nah.
So lets see what these new guys bring to the mix, and yes as someone said, it’s getting pretty saturated out there with ghost shows, now a haunted house show tonight on FLN as well. Celebrity Ghost Stories! I really hope there will be some show brave enough to go to these places and show the truth, no water bottles being moved through an open window fooling even Meatloaf (I hope he didn’t know), or a guy in a black, possibly silk shawl running in sneakers on a prison catwalk..etc. etc., I do have to give it to those sharp-eyed skeptics out there who find these inconsistancies. I only wonder what the next explanation will be? It seems to have turned into a game, like where’s waldo, or find the hidden objects in the picture, only it’s find where the hoaxters messed up big time. Sorry for the long post…as someone who would like to find out what happened to him as an early teen, and seeing all this foolishness going on, I tend to get a little miffed when someone tries to pull one over on me, and the world no less. When some of the people have to fess up about their actions on whatever show, I will really feel badly for those who had been pulled in by their actions and how it will hurt the people who ARE hunting for the truth. Their evidence will never be taken seriously.
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